Similarities

Novels, poetry, non-fiction works. Anything bound in paper, pretty much.
User avatar
TCRegan
Posts: 657
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:51 pm

Re: Similarities

Postby TCRegan » Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:26 am

Gollum as Thenardier, no. I can't see it because Gollum is rather single minded. Thenardier is too dangerous, too cunning. He thinks too much, almost to the point of ruin. He's extremely greedy but he's got a sharp mind. Gollum is kind of all consumed with the ring. I can't really find a good likeness for Thenardier in LotR. . . I would have to think about it.

Gollum did lead Frodo through Mordor to Mount Doom (that's what you're looking for) in kind of the way Thenardier opened the sewers for Valjean, but keep in mind that Gollum's idea was to get the ring back for himself pretty much the whole time. Thenardier was happy with what he got off Marius's body and left it at that. He also didn't know Javert would be waiting for Valjean (correct me if I'm wrong there). So no, I really don't like Gollum for Thenardier at all.

Gollum was only bad because the ring made him that way. Yes, you could say that he had that evil in him to begin with and the ring drew it out. But he's more pitiable than he is evil, both are reasons why he doesn't wholly work for the Javert comparison, either. Thenardier was borderline if not entirely sociopathic to me. Or maybe that's just the side I saw. He saw no issues with stealing (from living or dead), killing, using guilts and bribery to get what he wanted. Gollum is nefarious and he does come up with a plan or two (thinking about the scene with the lembas bread) but that's not his entire being. Thenardier is just a nasty piece of work.

This is where the Star Wars metaphor works. Thenardier is sort of like a less ambitious Emperor Palpatine. He uses tricks, guilt, manipulations to get everything that he wants. While I don't think Thenardier would be the one wanting to rule the universe, he like Palpatine feels that people are there as a stepping stone to get one step higher.

You could ALSO in a way liken Thenardier to Viserys from A Song of Ice and Fire in that they both feel like they deserve to be handed something they didn't really earn. Thenardier feels like Col Pontmercy should have given him money, etc though he didn't really save his life. Viserys feels like people should just give him respect and honor him because he happens to have been the son of a king.

And I could go on about ASOIAF similarities for ages too.
However, this sceptic had one fantacism. This fantacism was neither a dogma, nor an art, nor a science; it was a man: Enjolras. Grantaire admired, loved and venerated Enjolras.

Grantaire, in whom writhed doubt, loved to watch faith soar in Enjolras.

User avatar
Saint Jolras
Posts: 643
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:55 pm
Location: The Cold, Barren Wasteland of Freezinghellsota.

Re: Similarities

Postby Saint Jolras » Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:45 am

I so love hearing you talk about this stuff. Not fangirlish squeeing, but when you go into intelligent tangents, it's lovely.

You've more of a grasp on those characters than I do when it comes to fantasy whatnot, so I heartily defer to your interpretations. It's also an example of the shallowness of before that I spoke of. You have a small bit of something that could be a similarity, but as you dig deeper, the gulf widens tremendously.

To use another similarity that I think we'd both understand, there's Arthas as Enjolras, or vice versa. There are the looks, of course, but that's hardly worth mentioning. Arthas started off as wanting to do best for his people. He was in a position to bring prosperity to them, and when the shit really started hitting the fan, he took swift decisive action. Granted, his action was frowned upon, but there were few choices at the time and not enough time to go through them all one by one.

And then the chasm springs open. The two characters shared a single-minded goal, but while Enjolras' main end was a noble one, Arthas based his more on revenge. It may have started with protecting his people, but it turned vicious, cruel, and ended up destroying him.

Though I'd love to have seen Enjolras doing the whole "Purge! Purge! Purge!" thing. Also, in the book he justified his killing but knew he'd be punished for it. He accepted his faults. Arthas, on the other hand, didn't accept the fact that he had blood on his own hands. He may have needed to do what he did, but he didn't feel remorseful afterwards. He was too inclined on killing Mal'Ganis.

And now I'm all inclined to be Tyrion Fordring as Javert, y/n?

Disclaimer: The above post may contain a different opinion. The poster did not mean any hurt feelings by this post. If it would help, feel free to read the above post in a sing-songy manner.

(Should just make that my sig.)
But I don't feel like dancin' when the old joanna plays
My heart could take a chance but my two feet can't find a way
You'd think that I could muster up a little soft shoe gentle sway
But I don't feel like dancin', no sir, no dancin' today.

User avatar
Enjolras-the-jaw
Posts: 857
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:27 pm
Location: Standing in my grave, looking down
Contact:

Re: Similarities

Postby Enjolras-the-jaw » Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:21 am

TC: oh Lord, you made a Star Wars refrance, here we go... :twisted:

JVJ: Obi-Wan (he is hunted down by order 66, an unjust order)
Javert: Vader (see above flipped)
Fantine: Padme (she has her heart broken by her lover)
Thernardiers: Jabba the Hutt and Gardula the Hutt
Cosette: Leia
Marius: Han (his confusion about staying with the Rebels and going to settle his debt with Therdier, which is also perfect, is very perfect)
Enjolras: Luke (the bold leader of the alliance...)
Éponine: Callista (if you know expanded universes she is in a relationship with luk, but it ends badly, and so she fits... ish)
Grantaire: Han works here too, but I have to say... Wes Janson from Star Wars: rouge squadron for his sense of humor.
Enjolras: saint or sinner Jehan: Ackbar, just for the "It's a trap!" line.

But other characters:

Atticus Finch (To Kill a Mocking Bird): the Bishop
Oliver Twist (Oliver Twist): Gavroche and Navet
Sun Tzu (the Art of War): Combeferre
Everyone in LOTR before I read this
Harry potter see the link for this fic (I didn't write it: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1456967/1/H ... Misérables )
Avatar the last Airbender everyone was compared by my sister and I
Kim (Miss Saigon): Fantine
And many, many, many, many,many more... :) :D
At the end of the day, I dreamed a dream that whenever I was on my own in my life, I would hear the people sing with a heart full of love under the stars. Les Mis, I pledge allegiance to you.

User avatar
Marianne
Posts: 1724
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:20 pm
Location: Paris
Contact:

Re: Similarities

Postby Marianne » Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:57 am

Interesting that the LotR comparison should come up, because I watched the Two Towers extended edition with my family over Thanksgiving and the movie treatment of Helm's Deep brought up all sorts of buried rage about how the barricade is portrayed in the musical. True, the similarities (a small band of heroic defenders holding a fortified position far longer than anyone expected them to against a huge army of attackers) are commonplace enough that it wouldn't have struck me otherwise, but the bone-dead stupid Adaptation Decay is almost identical.

Let's recap: in the book, once Théoden has broken Wormtongue's hold over him he rides out with a proper army to reinforce his straggling forces against Saruman. Gandalf warns him that Saruman is sending a huge army of orcs after him and, very sensibly, advises him that it might possibly be a better idea to retreat to the Hornburg at Helm's Deep--which is damn near impregnable, being carved straight into a mountain gorge that's shielded by foothills before you even get to the ten-foot-thick Deeping Wall--instead of leading a few hundred Rohirrim against 10,000+ orcs in the open field.

In the movie, there's pretty much no change to the initial situation, and yet for some reason the advice is the opposite. Gandalf tells Théoden that his only chance is to engage Saruman in the field. Théoden's decision to hole up in a fortress that has never before fallen to assault is portrayed not only as a strategic blunder, but almost as a nobly self-sacrificing form of cowardice: the narrative insists that the Rohirrim are thinking only of themselves, clinging blindly to their traditional refuge in Helm's Deep, and setting themselves up for a Desperate Noble Last Stand that they should somehow know is doomed from the start. Uh. Because the alternative--launching a ~proactive~ attack to bring Saruman down For The Good Of All Middle-Earth and immediately getting slaughtered by an army twenty times their size--has such better odds.

Ditto the barricade, in the musical and especially in fanon. Somehow the revolutionaries just should have known they were doomed from the start, and god, wtf is the purpose of just building a giant furniture wall and sitting there waiting for the army to mow you down so you can claim glorious martyrdom for the Republic? I've ranted against that attitude God knows how many times, because it betrays a total failure to understand that when you're a small force against a whole army, yeah, it's probably best to hold a fortified position until the reinforcements show up. Not to mention a failure to understand that similar revolutions had a good track record of succeeding in the recent past--they had every reason to hope for said reinforcements in the form of widespread revolt--and the ones that didn't succeed mostly fizzled out in the riot stage: a handful of people killed or wounded in skirmishes, a bunch of people arrested, certainly not a two-day city-wide state of siege and uncertainty that ended in summary executions all around.

So yeah, the situations aren't exactly analogous between Les Mis and LotR, but the insulting adaptation of climactic battles is nearly identical. In both cases you have a smart decision to fight against a vastly superior force from a protected position, with decent hopes of success, reframed as a deliberate and boneheaded decision to seek out a heroic last stand. All because the people writing the adaptation knew that the defenders were screwed (well, the Rohirrim would've been without Gandalf's reinforcements) and expected the characters to know that too. Hell, you can take it further: both sets of defenders could well have succeeded were it not for unexpected circumstances--the apathy of the Parisian population in Les Mis (and the viciousness of the army reprisals), the use of explosives and other unheard-of siege instruments by the Uruk-Hai in LotR. Similar, too, is the patronizing characterization of the defenders as unfit for battle and the implication that it's tragic to see them bearing arms in the first place: Les Mis fares far worse with all the "they were schoolboys, never held a gun" nonsense, but the Helm's Deep sequence in LotR is full of lingering shots of children and old men struggling into armor they can barely wear and taking up swords they don't know how to use.
[Dieu] entend ta voix, ô fille des hommes! aussi bien que celle des constellations; car rien n'est petit pour celui devant lequel rien n'est grand.
- George Sand, Les sept cordes de la lyre

User avatar
Saint Jolras
Posts: 643
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:55 pm
Location: The Cold, Barren Wasteland of Freezinghellsota.

Re: Similarities

Postby Saint Jolras » Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:14 am

That is an amazing similarity. Thank you so much for explaining it, particularly in terms in which even I could understand since Helm's Deep isn't exactly something I keep in mind. That makes far more sense now as an analogy, and what it may lack in complete similarity, it makes up for in integrity, or lack thereof.

Thank you for bringing that up!
But I don't feel like dancin' when the old joanna plays
My heart could take a chance but my two feet can't find a way
You'd think that I could muster up a little soft shoe gentle sway
But I don't feel like dancin', no sir, no dancin' today.

User avatar
MmeJavert
Benevolent Dictator
Posts: 2167
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:21 am
Location: Buffalo, NY
Contact:

Re: Similarities

Postby MmeJavert » Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:32 am

Saint Jolras wrote:I ran the post via my gf to make sure I wasn't sounding overly aggressive and when she couldn't find anything wrong with it, I figured it was fine. Wrong on both counts, apparently.



I just wanted to make sure it wasn't intended as I read it -- you probably don't know this, being new to the board, but in the past we've had some trouble where certain people thought the rest of us weren't good enough/smart enough for them, so I'm probably a bit more touchy about people coming across as snobbish or presenting themselves as thinking 'this isn't good enough for me, you're not doing things intelligently/correctly, so I will look down my nose at you.' I don't think you were trying to do that specifically, but the tone of the post at the beginning seemed to be veering that way. Please don't take all this the wrong way! I've just gotten in the habit of reading posts with the intent of rooting out things that might offend people, just because of drama that's occurred here in the past two years.
and to this day, she's glided on
always home but so far away
like a word misplaced
nothing said, what a waste

~pearl jam, "dissident"

User avatar
Saint Jolras
Posts: 643
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:55 pm
Location: The Cold, Barren Wasteland of Freezinghellsota.

Re: Similarities

Postby Saint Jolras » Wed Dec 07, 2011 5:15 am

"I don't think you were trying to do that specifically, but the tone of the post at the beginning seemed to be veering that way."

I try to take everything on the internet with a grain of salt. I've been on forums that ran the gamut of rules to complete anarchy and have long since learned that there is no true tone on the web. So it's easy to either dismiss someone as being flippant or take their words as aggressive.

It's also why I ask a lot regarding discussions. The thread intrigued me not only for the content, but because when I get hooked on something, I like to read other things or see movies with the same ideals, tones, etc.

I wasn't sure if this was going through base shallow similarities or if it was meant to dig deeper. No offense was meant to anyone. Quite frankly, I know very well that I'm not the most intelligent person here, not even close. I wouldn't judge a person by what they post, though I do take a delight in judging opinions on their merit and ideas, if only to potentially further along a discussion.
But I don't feel like dancin' when the old joanna plays
My heart could take a chance but my two feet can't find a way
You'd think that I could muster up a little soft shoe gentle sway
But I don't feel like dancin', no sir, no dancin' today.

User avatar
TCRegan
Posts: 657
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:51 pm

Re: Similarities

Postby TCRegan » Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:47 am

So many things to reply to. Here I go with my best attempt!

I so love hearing you talk about this stuff. Not fangirlish squeeing, but when you go into intelligent tangents, it's lovely.


I need to squee every now and again. The intelligent tangents hurt my head sometimes. :)

To use another similarity that I think we'd both understand, there's Arthas as Enjolras, or vice versa. There are the looks, of course, but that's hardly worth mentioning. Arthas started off as wanting to do best for his people. He was in a position to bring prosperity to them, and when the shit really started hitting the fan, he took swift decisive action. Granted, his action was frowned upon, but there were few choices at the time and not enough time to go through them all one by one.


Arthas (World of Warcraft for those who don't get the reference) is a good similarity to Enjolras but it can only take you so far. I can't see Enjolras crossing the line as far as Arthas or Sylvanas did for his people. He's more of a Ned Stark in that respect. He's got the nobleness going on about him, but Ned Stark would definitely kill one of his own people if he crossed the line (like Enjolras). Arthas or Sylvanas I can see them letting something like that go.

Oh boy. I gotta stop myself before I get into the ASOIAF references.

And now I'm all inclined to be Tyrion Fordring as Javert, y/n?


You have broken my mind. And Thassarian and Koltira as his little sidekicks. I can see that all too easily.

@Enjolras-the-jaw Yes, Star Wars. Let's see...

I can see JVJ as Obi-Wan. Especially after he leaves all that chaos behind him and goes to Tatooine to live in exile, hunted by the Sith. He left his name behind him ("Obi-Wan... that's a name I've not heard in a long time... a long time") and fashioned himself anew. He became benevolent, good-natured, willing to sacrifice himself. He died so Luke (Marius in this metaphor) could survive. It's oddly fitting!

Javert I don't see as Vader and I'd like your reasoning behind this. If only because Vader was following orders, he was manipulated by the Emperor. Javert wasn't manipulated by anyone, he was sort of blinding by his own self-righteousness, his belief that men could never change, that scum will always be scum. And to be just was to uphold the law. I'm not sure how that works.

Fantine and Padme. I can kind of see this one. And she was left with children just as Fantine was left with Cosette. The big difference is that Padme, according to Lucas, would rather give up than live for her kids all because her husband (see: Tholomyes in this reference) left her. That would be like Fantine giving Cosette up and then dying because she was so sad he left. Padme the way she's written by Lucas is so fucking weak in the end it makes me see red. He could've easily said she was dying because... I don't know, maybe. because ANAKIN FORCE CHOKED HER THE SCENE BEFORE!!

... /calms down

I just hate when women are written as these weak pathetic things that need a man to complete them. And while it's acceptable depending on the story, Fantine fought against all social norms and she is, I think, one the strongest if not THE strongest person in the novel. Nothing is harder than realizing that you are going to have some poor, helpless thing who relies solely on you to live, and you have to care for that child. And then you have to try to give it a better life than you had. Padme FAILS. ... Moving on before I get too off topic and rage about that.

Thenardiers ... I can see that but only after everything is said and done. We see Jabba only after he's pretty much taken over Tatooine and the power he's come into. A better comparison for Jabba and Gardula would be Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette if you wanted to go that route.

Cosette as Leia? No freaking way. Sorry to be harsh there. Leia had a wonderful home life, loving parents, she surrounded herself with people who loved her from when she was young and then saw all the suffering of her people and then joined with the rebellion under Jan Dodonna. Cosette, as much as I love her, and as wonderful as she is, I can't see her picking up a blaster (bayonette) and wading into battle, holding her own with the boys, taking out baddies left and right. Cosette is to me what a Disney princess is (NOT in any kind of derogatory way, I like Disney princesses!). She had a terrible childhood, then found a father, then her true love, and gets as happy an ending as you can for Les Mis. If you can expand on why you put Cosette as Leia though, I'd like to hear it.

Marius as Han I thought about for awhile, to see if there was anything in there that wouldn't fit and while it's not a perfect match, it ... yeah, it kinda fits. It really does. He's a reluctant hero. I like this one.

Enjolras: Luke (the bold leader of the alliance...)


Wait. What? No. Luke wasn't the leader. Unless you mean AFTER Return of the Jedi in which case I do remember he ran off to collect Jedi from around the galaxy to start a school. This one doesn't work at all. Luke won one battle (first Death Star), and only survived the second because Vader saved him. He also didn't want to join the Rebellion for any reason except for Biggs Darklighter. He wanted to get out of the crappy life he was in and become something greater than he was. This would work better as a comparison if Luke saw Mos Eisley for the wretched hive of scum and villainy it was and tried to start a rebellion against Jabba. Leia was more of a leader than he was. The true leader was, at least in the first trilogy, Mon Mothma. "Many Bothans died to bring us this information." Enjolras ... yeah, I can see him sacrificing some people for the greater good of things. Not Luke. At least not until he's WAY older and by then, the Empire is scattered and divided.

Callista... I don't remember much of her background but I remember her very much being in love with him and he her. So that doesn't fit for Éponine. Her tale is unrequited love. My brain is failing for any kind of unrequited love in the Star Wars franchise. It's been a long time since I've read the books though so you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't think of an Éponine that would fit.

Grantaire as Han? Hm. The cynical side, yes. The only way this wouldn't work is because he doesn't have an Enjolras to bounce off of. Incomplete similarity, but for the cynic, "I flew to one end of this galaxy to the other and I've seen a lot of crazy stuff but nothing that would make me believe in an all powerful Force controlling everything." It works.

Ackbar!Jehan makes me giggle. :D

... Gonna stop here for now because this is already way longer than I intended it to be. Will get back to the other stuff later.
However, this sceptic had one fantacism. This fantacism was neither a dogma, nor an art, nor a science; it was a man: Enjolras. Grantaire admired, loved and venerated Enjolras.

Grantaire, in whom writhed doubt, loved to watch faith soar in Enjolras.

User avatar
Enjolras-the-jaw
Posts: 857
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:27 pm
Location: Standing in my grave, looking down
Contact:

Re: Similarities

Postby Enjolras-the-jaw » Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:30 pm

I realize that not all of it works perfectly, however we are combining two fandoms here and we need a little lenience. Here are my extended explanations:

Vader: Vader is OBSESSED with finding Obi-Wan, so much so that he, directly after order 66, hunts down 20 some Jedi because he is convinced Obi-Wan is among them, among other incidents (the Dark Lady, Corellia during the Force Unleashed, Toprawa...). I relize that making Javert evil is not the best, but it works well-ish

Padme: It doesn't fit perfectly, but they both die in similar atmospheres, with JVJ/Obi-Wan at their side. ATEoTD, IDaD, and Come to Me works, just not Lovely Ladies/Fantines Arrest

Luke: I didn't want to go too far back into Star Wars history, but Anakin Solo would work in this part as well. He leads a team of Jedi against the Yuzzen Vong, and many of them, including himself, die. But on to Luke. Luke is the poster boy for the Rebellion. He had no background, but he blew up the Death Star. This is much like there being no reason for Enjy to fight (like Luke), as Hugo says he was an only son and rich, but he fought anyways and became a rallying point of the people. Also, this was always intended as a comparison cast, but mainly because he saw the problems the Emperor (Louis XVI) was causing on the galaxy ("I don't like the Emperor, I hate him!" Star Wars 4).

Leia: She just fits with Han. I know this is a LAME excuse, but she was the only one who would fit.

Callista: Same deal. Han never had a serious GF, so there was no one to feel lonely for. Mara Jade and Luke worked out, so no. She was really the only choice.

What do you think about Wes Janson?

Hope this explained stuff,
"the Centerfold" :wink:
At the end of the day, I dreamed a dream that whenever I was on my own in my life, I would hear the people sing with a heart full of love under the stars. Les Mis, I pledge allegiance to you.

User avatar
Kuehenberg
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:48 pm

Re: Similarities

Postby Kuehenberg » Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:47 am

AS Enjolras-the-jaw says:
I realize that not all of it works perfectly, however we are combining two fandoms here and we need a little lenience


"The battle at the barricade is similar to Helm´s Deep, because both are battles where the "good" side is sorrounded and outnumbered."

The same could be said about any book that features a war or battle. The ones that are doing the uprising are typically the ones in the minority. If they weren't the minority, they'd be doing the ruling.

What can i add after Marianne´s post?

"Nazguls are multiplied sosias of Javert, as they are hunters, whereas the Ring can be a metaphor of the Guilt, both the internal of Valjean as the guilt before the justice Javert want to fullfill."

I don't really understand this one. The Nazguls have little choice but to hunt the ring. Javert made his choice. Javert lives by his own code


It´s not necesary to fit exactly, but there is a similarity, specially if you accept the Ring/Guilt similarity. Nazguls are agents of Evil, as Javert is an agent of opression. And both are not critic with their lords.

There are similarities and then there are things that happen in just about every fantasy or fictional piece of work


Yes, but the similarities here are so many that they caught my atention.

You could say that LotR was about a small group of people banding together to defeat the Big Bad. This doesn't hold up to Les Mis since the small group of people in Les Mis don't succeed, but there isn't a true Big Bad in the book. There are ideals that they want to overcome, there's a society that they want to overthrow, there are injustices to correct. It's more encompassing than having a final game end boss.


In LesMis the Evil they is represented (mainly) as opression. In LOTR, evil is not represented in ideal form, but is materialized in Sauron. And in LOTR, despite beating Sauron, the good people also fails in the end.

I don't mean to rag on just the LotR things, but similarities in appearances? Really? I'm sure there are thousands of pretty blonds sprinkled all throughout literature. I'm sure there are many big guys who wear chinwarmers and have the heart of a teddybear. I'm sure there are lots of of antiheroes who look severe. This doesn't mean they have anything in common with their Les Mis lookalikes.


The lookalikes i have post are not based in appearances, but in behaviour and role in the books.

Since you criticize only some issues, i supose the rest of them are all right.

I wouldn't liken Javert to the Nazgul. If you're using the metaphor of the Ring being guilt or being Valjean in that case, Gollum fits so much better. He had the ring, then he lost it. Then he continuously gets close to it through the books and in the end, it's his undoing. The Nazgul are slaves to the ring. As is Gollum, I suppose, but the joy that Gollum gets out of the ring is bittersweet, like Javert's final victory over Valjean. Oh and the whole ... falling to one's death is a nice parallel in my opinion.


Very good point. But you start comparing Gollum to Valjean and then you compare him to Javert, so this comparison is not 100% acurate (as many of the ones i have posted). They don´t need to be totally acurate, and the characters don´t need to fit exactly.
The Ring could be the guilt, the evil, the Sin. Thenardier/Gollum wants it over all, cause of the benefits it will bring him, but Frodo/Valjean sees it more as a burden than as an advantage. The dilema of Valjean about surrender to the Justice or be free is similar to Frodo´s dilema about the ring. Thenardier/Gollum´s joy is bitersweet and miserable, althought none of them is aware of it. Valjean´s death is pretty similar to Frodo´s destiny at the end of the book.

I don't know if Lord of the Rings is the best comparison for Les Mis at all because you have Sauron, who is the big bad, and you have his armies. The hobbits don't care, so long as they're left alone. Same with the dwarves. The men fight, the elves join. It's a rather black and white battle between good vs evil which Les Mis decidedly isn't.


I think that LOTR is pretty comparable to LesMis because you have the Autocratic power, and you have his armies. Most people, including Valjean, don´t care, so long as they´re left alone. Same with the offenders. ABC friends fight, some people join. And i think that LOTR is deeper than that, despite i also think that LesMis is deeper.

No one metaphor is going to fit because Les Mis, while allegorical, is extremely intricate and very unique


I don´t try to match 100%, but some similarities looked relevant to me.

How do you feel about Gollum relating to Thenardier? I liked the bit where he served as the gatekeeper in both. If you wanted to go into more depth, I suppose you could argue that Thenardier opening up the gate for Valjean at the end in the sewers was symbolic in a way. Allowing Valjean his freedom somewhat, enough to get to the main goal and do what he feels he must do. In which Gollum (keep wanting to call him the gollum) helped lead Frodo to..

That volcano. Mordor? I'm faltering here.

But then I think something gets a little lost since Thenardier started out the book 'bad' while Gollum teetered between good and bad here and there. There was a personal struggle within him that Thenardier lacked. Thenardier, it seemed, was far more resolute.

I'm just pointing this out since the gatekeeper bit was a nice touch.


Gollum as Thenardier, no. I can't see it because Gollum is rather single minded. Thenardier is too dangerous, too cunning. He thinks too much, almost to the point of ruin. He's extremely greedy but he's got a sharp mind. Gollum is kind of all consumed with the ring. I can't really find a good likeness for Thenardier in LotR. . . I would have to think about it.

Gollum did lead Frodo through Mordor to Mount Doom (that's what you're looking for) in kind of the way Thenardier opened the sewers for Valjean, but keep in mind that Gollum's idea was to get the ring back for himself pretty much the whole time. Thenardier was happy with what he got off Marius's body and left it at that. He also didn't know Javert would be waiting for Valjean (correct me if I'm wrong there). So no, I really don't like Gollum for Thenardier at all.


Yes, Gollum is a more complex character than Thenardier, but that wasn´t the point. The similarity is based on the role and the actions they make, so the moral/psicological differences between them don´t matter. By the way, it is not said, but can be suposed, that Thenardier knew about the danger of exit from the sewers that way.

User avatar
Enjolras-the-jaw
Posts: 857
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:27 pm
Location: Standing in my grave, looking down
Contact:

Re: Similarities

Postby Enjolras-the-jaw » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:12 am

Well since I'm reading the Hunger Games and everyone seems to relate to a LM character, I figured I'd revive this thread.

Peeta: Musical!Marius (I say this because Book!Mairus is not charismatic at all, whereas Musical!Marius at least seems like a semi-good speaker in Look Down), punched in the gut, having his fiacre fare stolen, and kidnapped and thrown into a ring with a few not-so-ethical Bahorels.

Haymitch: Grantaire (Does this require an explanation?!)

Careers: the Vicious Bahorels mentioned in Peeta's bit. They are strong, tough, and violent, but they don't have Bahorel's morals.

Enjolras: Since I'm only finished Catching Fire, I can't yet say who is Enjolras. After reading the first 6 chapters of Mockingbird, Katniss seems a bit like an unwilling Enjolras.

Finnick: Courfeyrac, but crueler and more violent. He also has a true love (which is my favorite pairing in the series: LONG LIVE Annie/Finnick!)

The Capitol: The government of France. They basically enslave the people and violently try to subdue them when they get even a little angry.

District 13: Les Amis de l'Abaisse. Once again, do I need to explain my reasoning here?

In any case, for y'all who read the books, PLEASE tell me what you think, add on, or critique (nicely :mrgreen: ) or just send me a PM and we can discuss, but please don't spoil the final book for me! :mrgreen:
At the end of the day, I dreamed a dream that whenever I was on my own in my life, I would hear the people sing with a heart full of love under the stars. Les Mis, I pledge allegiance to you.

User avatar
MmeFeuilly
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:52 am
Location: Canada

Re: Similarities

Postby MmeFeuilly » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:42 am

Enjolras-the-jaw wrote:Enjolras: Since I'm only finished Catching Fire, I can't yet say who is Enjolras. After reading the first 6 chapters of Mockingbird, Katniss seems a bit like an unwilling Enjolras.

I do Apologize for quibbling here, but: Katniss as Enjolras, I can't see. Movie!Katniss was good, yes, but as I see Enjolras as all about a passion, which she didn't have, she didn't want to do what she did for the people, she was looking at it as a personal fight. It was between her, her family, and the capitol. I do get the bit about "unwilling" but to me Enjolras is all about will, and passion, at least how I see him.
Book!Katniss, I don't like her. At all. I know, I know, but I really didn't, she seemed very selfish to me, and not at all like a hero, ("There aren't heros in this world, and if there were, I wouldn't be one of them" sort of thing.) let alone the hero that she was supposed to be, because even an unwilling hero is a hero, and she just didn't seem like one to me.
Enjolras-the-jaw wrote:Haymitch: Grantaire (Does this require an explanation?!)

Ah yes, :P my friend said that they should be drinking buddies. I almost think that if Grantaire had lived through the Barricade, they would be even more similar. (Is that a plot-bunny anyone wants to follow?)
Enjolras-the-jaw wrote:Finnick: Courfeyrac, but crueler and more violent. He also has a true love (which is my favorite pairing in the series: LONG LIVE Annie/Finnick!)

I'm not 100 percent sold on this one. It's probably the best comparision that someone could make, but it doesn't jump out at me. (The Peeta one does though. :P )

If we were to compaire Enjolras to anyone, I would say Gale, just because of his passion. Not Enjolras when we met him, but five or six years earlier. Probably when he had just began to think about the people, I would think they would be similar.
I Live On Constellation Street

User avatar
Enjolras-the-jaw
Posts: 857
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:27 pm
Location: Standing in my grave, looking down
Contact:

Re: Similarities

Postby Enjolras-the-jaw » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:19 am

I actually just finished Mockingjay and I can not express how much I f&^$ing hate Katniss. Enjolras would never vote for that final Hunger Games proposal, or kill Coin in cold blood. ERRRRR! :evil: Her character just deteriorated during the 3rd book!

anywhoooooooooo...

I could see Enjolras as Paylor perhaps, or maybe Commander Plutarch.

Oh yeah, and Cinna is a bit like Jehan, at least in my mind.
At the end of the day, I dreamed a dream that whenever I was on my own in my life, I would hear the people sing with a heart full of love under the stars. Les Mis, I pledge allegiance to you.

User avatar
Aurelia Combeferre
Posts: 8847
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:57 am
Location: somewhere with the abased
Contact:

Re: Similarities

Postby Aurelia Combeferre » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:01 pm

I also finished "Mockingjay". No, Katniss is NOT like Enjolras. Katniss gets into things more for personal reasons. Enjolras seems to get into his cause for the principle of it, or for the sake of a vision.

And may I just say....the only character I like at the end of the Hunger Games saga is Finnick. Who *does* seem like a bitter, more harsh Courfeyrac.
"...all aptitudes having equal opportunity; politically, all votes having equal weight; religiously, all consciences having equal rights."

User avatar
YoungStudentMarius
Posts: 8151
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:43 am
Location: London

Re: Similarities

Postby YoungStudentMarius » Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:10 am

I don't know if anyone else has ever thought this, too, but I recently read Crime and Punishment, and I think Razumikhin kind of reminded me of Courfeyrac. Not that they're exactly alike, I just couldn't get Courfeyrac out of my head while reading his lines. Like they could be related, perhaps, or friends, even though they both seem like they type who would be friends with everybody. And yet they both had strength in them, too, and could take responsibility, and never gave up on someone, even though they joked around a lot. And they tried to urge a down-and-out friend to learn German. :wink: (Not to say that Marius is like Raskolnikov... :shock: ) Anyone else think that at all?
Our chimeras are the things which most resemble us. Each of us dreams of the unknown and the impossible in accordance with his nature.


Return to “Written Works”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest