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Ilargi
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Re: Hello!

Postby Ilargi » Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:06 pm

_23623_ wrote:Hugo writes about everything. He teaches me French history, how to use slangs and how to orient oneself in Paris sewers, all kinds of stuff

Right, you never know when all that knowledge may come in handy. :lol:

_23623_ wrote:I didn't pay much attention to the amis before I read the book, mainly due to the simplification of the musical. For God knows how long I didn't even know Enjolras' name. Maybe I'll find these little schoolboys more interesting when I read again.

I couldn't tell the amis apart until I read the book, they looked like a collective character to me, Enjolras stood up because he sang more than the others, but that was all (I didn't know his name either). I didn't even feel sad for their deaths. But the book killed me because I had the impression they were real, and even though I knew what would happen to them, I didn't want to believe it.

_23623_ wrote:Oh dear, what made you think you won't like the book?

Well, the story has a lot of drama, romanticism and religion, and I don't usually like that kind of things. A little bit of that is okay, but Les Mis is practically all about that, so although I liked the film and the musical I thought maybe the book would be too much? I was obviously wrong. :lol:

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Chantefleurie
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Re: Hello!

Postby Chantefleurie » Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:12 pm

I apologize for the long absence! Being with family on break for me means I don't really get to sit at the computer very much. :)

_23623_ wrote:Hello Chantefleurie! May I ask are you a native Russian speaker? To me Russian is one of the most difficult languages. Its grammar and pronunciation can easily kill me.


Hi! Yes, I am bilingual in Russian and English. Somehow, I don't think it's that difficult. The grammar is different from most other languages, but you can usually make yourself understood without any grammar whatsoever. And I could say the reverse about Chinese pronunciation - I can't even hear the difference between the sounds sometimes, forget try to replicate them. :D I guess it's just a matter of what you're used to.

_23623_ wrote:But to tell the truth, I still can't fully understand what is so amusing about "Jolllly" even after reading the footnote; I don't know how to correctly pronounce "Joly" in the very first place :oops: I do get the humor of R's name though.


I think that Joly (pronunciation here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3NHm83pYR0) just got his nickname because it sounds fun. If it were me, I would have called him Jolalalalaly or something. It's just a friendly tease. It's fun to say with a prolonged llllll. I have no clue why four L's though. :?

Ilargi wrote:Since we're talking about translations, the Spanish translator explained the pun with Grantaire/R in a footnote, but she invented another pun for Joly: "Cuatro eles para que las uses como cuatro alas". Literally it means "Four L's for you to use as four wings", and the joke is that the words "eles" (L's) and "alas" (wings) are similar in Spanish.


Interesting. I didn't realize the pun would work so literally in another language at all!

Ilargi wrote:For example, he says Grantaire signs with an R when he's introducing all the Amis, so I see there a personality trait of that character: Grantaire likes joking, he even makes fun of his own name.


Even more interesting. I thought it was another aspect of him trying to make himself look more important, cryptic, fancy, special. The same sort of deception as his insistence that he has a way with women. I'm not sure if it was intended as self-deception, or he really wanted someone to believe him, or he just did it for jokes, but all of his deceptions failed regardless who they were directed at. Makes you kinda feel sorry for the guy before you even meet him. But your version of R makes him less pitiful (masochistic even?) and more cheerful, more boyish.

Ilargi wrote:
_23623_ wrote:Hugo writes about everything. He teaches me French history, how to use slangs and how to orient oneself in Paris sewers, all kinds of stuff

Right, you never know when all that knowledge may come in handy. :lol:


Hey, these are useful things to know! You read enough books and you know things that most people don't. And regarding the sewers, I actually made a mental note of Valjean's strategy. :D
C'est tellement mystérieux, le pays des larmes. ~Le Petit Prince, Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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23623
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Re: Hello!

Postby 23623 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:49 am

It's OK, Chantefleurie. I also apologize for my absence because I've been really busy these days.
Chantefleurie wrote:Hi! Yes, I am bilingual in Russian and English. Somehow, I don't think it's that difficult. The grammar is different from most other languages, but you can usually make yourself understood without any grammar whatsoever. And I could say the reverse about Chinese pronunciation - I can't even hear the difference between the sounds sometimes, forget try to replicate them. :D I guess it's just a matter of what you're used to.

Haha yes, it definitely has something to do with habits. Raise the flag of my-native-language-is-not-difficult high.
Still, I'm always stunned by the linguistic ability of the forum's members. If only I could have your talents!

Chantefleurie wrote:I think that Joly (pronunciation here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3NHm83pYR0) just got his nickname because it sounds fun. If it were me, I would have called him Jolalalalaly or something.

Thank you very much for the link! Solves a long-time Mis-tery for me. And "Jolalalalaly" is so hilarious!

Chantefleurie wrote:I thought it was another aspect of him trying to make himself look more important, cryptic, fancy, special. The same sort of deception as his insistence that he has a way with women. I'm not sure if it was intended as self-deception, or he really wanted someone to believe him, or he just did it for jokes, but all of his deceptions failed regardless who they were directed at. Makes you kinda feel sorry for the guy before you even meet him.

For a long time I didn't know why I thought R appeared more "real" than some other characters, but your interpretation of him enlightens me. It suddenly occurs to me that I used to have a friend who was almost a real-life R. He matched your interpretation perfectly although he didn't make fun of his own name. But that was long before I knew Les Mis and we are no longer in contact now, so I failed to explicitly relate him to R. And now I start to feel sorry for R. I can imagine that he wants to be important and special while his ideas and behaviors cannot be accepted by anyone. He thinks life sucks but he just laughs it off because either he doesn't care at all or he wants to disguise his hopelessness, which unfortunately doesn't really help as people only despise him more.

And now this thread moves from translations to the characterization of Joly and R. It seems that as Hugo's fans we have learned something essential from him, namely digression :wink:
Revolution, but civilization

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Chantefleurie
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Re: Hello!

Postby Chantefleurie » Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:29 pm

_23623_ wrote:
Chantefleurie wrote:Hi! Yes, I am bilingual in Russian and English. Somehow, I don't think it's that difficult. The grammar is different from most other languages, but you can usually make yourself understood without any grammar whatsoever. And I could say the reverse about Chinese pronunciation - I can't even hear the difference between the sounds sometimes, forget try to replicate them. :D I guess it's just a matter of what you're used to.

Haha yes, it definitely has something to do with habits. Raise the flag of my-native-language-is-not-difficult high.
Still, I'm always stunned by the linguistic ability of the forum's members. If only I could have your talents!


Well, you know, I am continuously stunned by linguistic richness of both this forum and another one that I am a member of, and each time I meet a person who does not live in an English-speaking country but writes with better English than me - and it happens ridiculously often :wink: - I feel like I have to bury myself in a hole, take a year or two off from life, and learn a couple more languages.

_23623_ wrote:For a long time I didn't know why I thought R appeared more "real" than some other characters, but your interpretation of him enlightens me. It suddenly occurs to me that I used to have a friend who was almost a real-life R. He matched your interpretation perfectly although he didn't make fun of his own name. But that was long before I knew Les Mis and we are no longer in contact now, so I failed to explicitly relate him to R. And now I start to feel sorry for R. I can imagine that he wants to be important and special while his ideas and behaviors cannot be accepted by anyone. He thinks life sucks but he just laughs it off because either he doesn't care at all or he wants to disguise his hopelessness, which unfortunately doesn't really help as people only despise him more.


Aside from Enjolras, Grantaire is a fairly thorough cynic, skeptic, pessimist, unbeliever, whatever other adjective you want to throw in there. He's too much of a realist and too pessimistic to believe in a greater purpose or a better future. But that philosophy just turns on itself: by extension, he doesn't believe that his life means anything. It's not very comfortable to live without a goal or hope or duty in life, so some piece of unconscious self-defense must be kicking in to try to convince Grantaire that he's actually worth something. It's like those little self-esteem boosting deceptions we all play on ourselves every day, but more dramatic. I suppose that the mechanism didn't work, though, because Grantaire still sunk to his ears in drinking. At least he broke out of his drinking/depression at the very end.

_23623_ wrote:And now this thread moves from translations to the characterization of Joly and R. It seems that as Hugo's fans we have learned something essential from him, namely digression :wink:


There is a castle on the cloud... You can say stupid things aloud... :D
C'est tellement mystérieux, le pays des larmes. ~Le Petit Prince, Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Ilargi
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Re: Hello!

Postby Ilargi » Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:48 am

Hi! I've also been absent for a long time, sorry!

_23623_ wrote:Chantefleurie wrote:
I thought it was another aspect of him trying to make himself look more important, cryptic, fancy, special. The same sort of deception as his insistence that he has a way with women. I'm not sure if it was intended as self-deception, or he really wanted someone to believe him, or he just did it for jokes, but all of his deceptions failed regardless who they were directed at. Makes you kinda feel sorry for the guy before you even meet him.

That's right, Grantaire is so contradictory: he has this deep sadness inside, but externally he usually appears cheerful and is joking all the time. So you can see it either way: it could be either self-deception or a cynical sense of humour.

_23623_ wrote:I can imagine that he wants to be important and special while his ideas and behaviors cannot be accepted by anyone. He thinks life sucks but he just laughs it off because either he doesn't care at all or he wants to disguise his hopelessness, which unfortunately doesn't really help as people only despise him more.


Chantefleurie wrote:Aside from Enjolras, Grantaire is a fairly thorough cynic, skeptic, pessimist, unbeliever, whatever other adjective you want to throw in there. He's too much of a realist and too pessimistic to believe in a greater purpose or a better future. But that philosophy just turns on itself: by extension, he doesn't believe that his life means anything. It's not very comfortable to live without a goal or hope or duty in life, so some piece of unconscious self-defense must be kicking in to try to convince Grantaire that he's actually worth something. It's like those little self-esteem boosting deceptions we all play on ourselves every day, but more dramatic. I suppose that the mechanism didn't work, though, because Grantaire still sunk to his ears in drinking. At least he broke out of his drinking/depression at the very end.


Chantefleurie wrote:
There is a castle on the cloud... You can say stupid things aloud...


I have too many feelings for this poor guy, so if you excuse me, I'm going to my castle on the cloud before you make me cry. :(

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Chantefleurie
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Re: Hello!

Postby Chantefleurie » Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:03 pm

Ilargi wrote:I have too many feelings for this poor guy, so if you excuse me, I'm going to my castle on the cloud before you make me cry. :(


I'm sorry I upset you. Really, I didn't mean to upset anyone, nor to say that Grantaire is anything but a lovely character. The reason I would want to analyze his dark side as well is because he's so intriguing and complex and very lovable. There's not much point in doing a psychoanalysis of, say, Brujon. But Grantaire is fascinating to look at from all angles. It doesn't make him a bad character, and it doesn't mean I don't like the guy - like you, I also have a lot of feeling for the misfortunate bloke - but it makes me love him even more when I look at him from each side.
C'est tellement mystérieux, le pays des larmes. ~Le Petit Prince, Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Ilargi
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Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:42 pm

Re: Hello!

Postby Ilargi » Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:41 am

Chantefleurie wrote:I'm sorry I upset you. Really, I didn't mean to upset anyone, nor to say that Grantaire is anything but a lovely character. The reason I would want to analyze his dark side as well is because he's so intriguing and complex and very lovable. There's not much point in doing a psychoanalysis of, say, Brujon. But Grantaire is fascinating to look at from all angles. It doesn't make him a bad character, and it doesn't mean I don't like the guy - like you, I also have a lot of feeling for the misfortunate bloke - but it makes me love him even more when I look at him from each side.

Don't worry! I was kidding... more or less. :lol:
I agree that Grantaire is a very interesting character, you can analyse him from several points of views and you can interpret what you read in so many different ways, you can hypothesized about his depression, psychological dependence... I can't really say I have a favourite Les Mis characters because I love most of them, but in my opinion Grantaire is one of the more interesting in that sense.
As for my being sad when you talk about him... don't worry. :wink: I'm also sad for example when I remember how Jean Provaire was captured and killed or how Valjean kept despising himself at the end after all he had done… But I do feel more intensely for Grantaire and I couldn't tell why, since I don't know anyone like him in real life.

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Chantefleurie
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Re: Hello!

Postby Chantefleurie » Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:06 am

Ilargi wrote:
Chantefleurie wrote:I'm sorry I upset you. Really, I didn't mean to upset anyone, nor to say that Grantaire is anything but a lovely character. The reason I would want to analyze his dark side as well is because he's so intriguing and complex and very lovable. There's not much point in doing a psychoanalysis of, say, Brujon. But Grantaire is fascinating to look at from all angles. It doesn't make him a bad character, and it doesn't mean I don't like the guy - like you, I also have a lot of feeling for the misfortunate bloke - but it makes me love him even more when I look at him from each side.

Don't worry! I was kidding... more or less. :lol:
I agree that Grantaire is a very interesting character, you can analyse him from several points of views and you can interpret what you read in so many different ways, you can hypothesized about his depression, psychological dependence... I can't really say I have a favourite Les Mis characters because I love most of them, but in my opinion Grantaire is one of the more interesting in that sense.
As for my being sad when you talk about him... don't worry. :wink: I'm also sad for example when I remember how Jean Provaire was captured and killed or how Valjean kept despising himself at the end after all he had done… But I do feel more intensely for Grantaire and I couldn't tell why, since I don't know anyone like him in real life.


Well, I'm glad! I think we might love Grantaire more because of the "Wayward Son Effect", if I may call it so. I think we're just so glad for him that he found what the others had all along that he seems more dear. Or maybe he's just more fleshed out and given more individual attention.
C'est tellement mystérieux, le pays des larmes. ~Le Petit Prince, Antoine de Saint-Exupéry


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