3.3 Le grand-père et le petit-fils 16/2/11-23/2/11

Abaissé re-reads the novel in its entirety! All welcome, no matter whether you're reading in French or some other translation. Discussion topics for each step along the way.

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3.3 Le grand-père et le petit-fils 16/2/11-23/2/11

Postby Ulkis » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:42 am

Volume 3: Marius, book 3: Grandfather and Grandson

Chapters:

1. Un ancien salon/An old time salon
2. Un des spectres rouges de ce temps-là/One of the red spectres of that time
3. Requiescant/R.I.P.
4. Fin du brigand/Death of a brigand
5. Utilité d'aller à la messe pour devenir révolutionnaire/How attendance at mass may create a revolutionary
6. Ce que c'est que d'avoir rencontrer un marguillier/Outcome of a chance meeting
7. Quelque cotillon/The 'wench'
8. Marbre contre granit/Marble meets granite

We are properly introduced to Marius, Monsieur Gillenormand's grandson as he begins to learn some family secrets. After learning about Napoleon after he finds out his father served in his army, he and Gillenormand clash over politics. And also, we are introduced to Theodule, Marius' cousin and the world's worst spy.

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Re: 3.3 Le grand-père et le petit-fils 16/2/11-23/2/11

Postby Aurelia Combeferre » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:29 pm

Rereading that chapter makes me remember what little I've read about Hugo's young life. I'm not so clear though about how close he was with his father, and how much Hugo drew on his own experiences of childhood to write Marius' background.
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Re: 3.3 Le grand-père et le petit-fils 16/2/11-23/2/11

Postby Ulkis » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:10 pm

Oh Marius, you self-insert you.

Interesting to note that Marius never really much liked Gillenormand.

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Re: 3.3 Le grand-père et le petit-fils 16/2/11-23/2/11

Postby MmeBahorel » Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:38 am

The notes cover some of it, Aurelia, in the reconciliations. There's also, however, the fact that Sophie and Léopold's marriage collapsed with pretty spectacular fireworks and loads of bitterness - a very, very nasty divorce that forever affected Hugo's relationship with his father as he saw him rarely before his mother's death. Living exclusively with his mother, during that breakup and its aftermath, it's really quite heartening that Victor managed a relationship with his father at all.

And, notes!

Livre 3

Chapitre 1
1 (M. Bengy -Puy-Vallée): Cet émigré, devenu sous la Restauration conseiller général du Cher, auteur d'un opuscule politique et religieux, figure ici sans doute, parmi d'autres, pour son nom inconnu et ronflant que le Grand dictionnaire de P. Larousse lui-même ignore. Hugo avait songé à intituler ce chapitre << Mme de T., laquelle signifie peut-être Mme de P. ou Mme de C. >>.
This emigré, becoming under the Restoration councilor general of the Cher, author of a minor political and religious work, figures here without doubt, among the other, for his unrecognised and high-flown name that the Grand Dictionnaire by P. Larousse itself ignores. Hugo had considered titling this chapter “Mme de T., which means perhaps Mme de P. or Mme de C.”

2 (“a brigand of the Loire”): En 1815 l'armée de Davout se retira derrière la Loire. Devant l'ordre d'arborer la cocarde blanche, la moitié des effectifs déserta. De là l'expression employée par les ultras de << brigand de la Loire >>, étendue à l'ensemble des soldats fidèles à Napléon. Pour Hugo, dont le père s'était installé à Blois, en pays de Loire, cette appellation devait avoir une tonalité toute particulière.
In 1815 Davout's army pulled back behind the Loire. Before the order to display the white cockade, the greater part of his forces deserted. From there expression used by the Ultras of “Brigand of the Loire”, extended to all the soldiers faithful to Napoleon. For Hugo, whose father was installed at Blois, in the countryside of the Loire, this appellation should have a very particular tone.

Chapitre 2
3 (One of the Red Spectres): Auguste Romieu fit paraître, en 1851, un pamphlet Le Spectre rouge de 1852 destiné à accroître la peur du socialism et à faire accepter le coup d'État. Châtiments déjà n'épargnait guère ce petit plumitif et nous retrouverons, chez les << amis de l'ABC >>, cette dérision de la peur du rouge. L'expression désigne ici le père de Marius, le baron Pontmercy et avec lui Léopold Hugo, mais d'abord son fils Victor.
Auguste Romieu published, in 1851, a pamphlet, The Red Spectre of 1852, destined to increase fear of socialism and to force acceptance of the coup d'état. Châtiments already hardly spared this little scribbler and we will find again, in the company of the “Friends of the ABC”, this derision of the red fear. The expression designates here Marius' father, Baron Pontmercy, and with him Léopold Hugo, but above all his son, Victor.

4 (at Alzey, at Mayence): Les carrières de Léopold Hugo et de G. Pontmercy sont donc identique à leurs début et fin (engagement avant 1789, armée du Rhin, campagne de l'Allemagne, mise en demi-solde). Mais Pontmercy concentre tous les hauts fait des armées impériales : voir plus loin Eylau, Waterloo où Léopold n'était pas.
The careers of Léopold Hugo and of G. Pontmercy are thus identical in their beginning and end (joined up before 1789, army of the Rhine [French wiki in lots of detail], German campaign, put on half-pay). But Pontmercy concentrats all the heights of the imperial armies: see further on Eylau, Waterloo where Léopold never was.

5 (the heroic Captain Louis Hugo): Louis avait fait aux Hugo le récit de ce combat reproduit dans le Victor Hugo raconté... (ouv. Cit., p. 155-165) et repris dans le célèbre Cimetière d'Eylau de La Légende des siècles (Nouvelle série, XXI, 4 – volume Poésie III).
Louis had told Hugo the tale of this battle reproduced in Victor Hugo Recounted . . . (op. Cit., p. 155-165) and taken up again in the famous “Cemetery of Eylau” in Legend of the Centuries (New Series, XXI, 4 – volume Poetry III).

6 (nor his title of Baron): Louis XVIII ne reconnut pas non plus au général Hugo son grade ni son titre de comte, accordé par Joseph en juillet 1810.
Louis XVIII did not recognise General Hugo's rank nor his title of Count, accorded by Joseph [Bonaparte, as King of Spain] in July 1810.

7 (at Saint-Sulpice): Dans la même église, et aussi << furtivement >>, Victor venait contempler Adèle Foucher que le véto de Sophie lui interdisait de voir et d'épouser en 1820. Leur mariage, qui eut lieu précisément à Saint-Sulpice en octobre 1822, fut l'occasion du premier rapprochement entre Hugo et son père. De même, le voyage à Vernon (chap. 7) emprunte à celui que Victor fit à Dreux en juillet 1821 pour voir Adèle et demander sa main à ses parents. Le retrouvailles posthumes de Marius et de son père seront donc le résultat d'une transposition complexe de l'expérience vécue.
In the same church, and also “furtively”, Victor went to gaze at Adèle Foucher, who Sophie's veto forbid him to see and to marry in 1820. Their marriage, which, as a matter of fact, took place at Saint-Sulpice in October 1822, was the occasion for the first rapprochement between Hugo and his father. By the same token, the trip to Vernon (chapter 7) borrows from the one Hugo made to Dreux in July 1821 in order to see Adèle and ask her parents for her hand. The posthumous reunionn of Marius and his father will thus be the result of a complex transposition of lived experience.

Chapitre 3
8 (Requiescant): << Qu'ils reposent (en paix)! >> : liturgie de la messe des défunts et de l'inhumation. Par-delà l'ironie, cette formule s'adresse aussi aux fantômes personnel de l'adolescence de Hugo qui dit ici adieu à l'univers de sa mère.
“May they rest (in peace)!” Liturgy of the mass for the dead and of burial. Beyond irony, this formula addresses also the personal ghosts of Hugo's adolescence that here says goodbye to the universe of his mother.

9 (the Marquis de Coriolis d'Espinouse): Le poème des Contemplations (V, 3), Écrit en 1846, est une réponse au << marquis de C. d'E. >> par laquelle le poète justifie l'abandon des convictions royalistes de son enfance.
The poem in Contemplations (V, 3), “Written in 1846”, is a response to “Marquis of C. d'E.” by which the poet justifies the abandonment of the royalist convictions of his childhood.

10 (abbé Letourneur): Lamennais aurait conseillé à V. Hugo de prendre cet abbé comme confesseur (M.-F. Guyard).
Lammenais would have counseled V. Hugo to take this abbé as his confessor (M.-F. Guyard).

11 (in the twenty-fifth year of his reign): La charte de 1814 avait été datée par Louis XVIII de la dix-neuvième année de son règne, lequel avait << commencé >> en 1795, à la mort de Louis XVII.
The Charter of 1814 had been dated by Louis XVIII in the nineteenth year of his reign, which had “begun” in 1795, with the death of Louis XVII.

12(who called Bonaparte “Scapin”): S'agissant de Napoléon Ier, on ne sait qui est ce << quelqu'un >>. Mais, s'il s'agit de Napoléon III, alors on est sûr que c'est Victor Hugo – voir, par exemple, Châtiments, IV, 3, On loge à la nuit.
Being about Napoleon I, we don't know who “someone” is. But, if it's about Napoleon III, then we are sure that it's Victor Hugo – see, for example, Châtiments, IV, 3, “On loge à nuit”. [Scapin is a character by Molière, a byword of deceit.]

13 (after 8 July): 5 septembre 1816 : dissolution de la Chambre dite << introuvable >>. 8 juillet 1815 : date du second retour de Louis XVIII à Paris, après les Cent-Jours.
5 September 1816: Dissolution of the Chamber called “unobtainable”. 8 July 1815: Date of Louis XVIII's second return to Paris, after the Hundred Days.

14 (attached him to this past): Ce souvenir maternel avoue le caractère autobiographique du texte, et confirme que le portrait de Marius qui suit est bien un autoportrait.
This maternal memory confesses the autobiographical character of the text, and confirms that the portrait of Marius that follows is very much a self-portrait.

Chapitre 4
15 (In 1827): C'est en 1827 que les relations devinrent tout à fait intimes entre V. Hugo et son père à qui il dédie, en décembre, Cromwell. Le Victor Hugo raconte... (ouv. Cit., p. 423) précise : << Il [Léopold] était descendu avec sa femme rue Plumet, dans le même quartier que ses fils. Le jeune homme [Victor] n'était guère de soir sans aller chez son père. >> La mort du général, le 29 janvier 1828, mit brutalement fin à ces retrouvailles qui n'avaient duré que quelques mois : de juin 1827 à janvier 1828.
It's in 1827 that relations all of a sudden become intimate between V. Hugo and his father to whom he dedicates, in December, Cromwell. Victor Hugo Recounted . . . (op. Cit., p. 423) relates: “He [Léopold] had come down the rue Plumet with his wife in the same neighbourhood as his sons. The young man [Victor] was hardly an evening without going to his father's house.” The General's death, 29 January 1828, put a brutal end to these reunios that had only lasted a few months: from June 1827 to January 1828.

Chapitre 5
16 (like a marguillier): Membre du << conseil de fabrique >> ou administration d'une paroisse.
Member of the “parish council” [French wiki only] or administration of a parish.

Chapitre 6
17 (among other, Count H.): Le comte Hugo, bien sûr.
Count Hugo, of course.

18 (all this had been good): Paraphrase de la Genèse - << Et Dieu vit que cela était bon >> - qui répond aux théories contre-révolutionnaires de J. de Maistre, voir II, 5, note 8.
Paraphrase of Genesis - “And God saw that it was good” - that responds to counterrevolutionary theories of J. de Maistre, see II, 5, note 8.

19 (the Baron Marius Pontmercy): V. Hugo prit le titre de baron à la mort de son père, en 1828, puis celui de vicomte après celle d'Eugène en 1837, noblesse reconnue par Louis-Philippe au moment de sa nomination à la Chambre des Pairs.
V. Hugo took the title of Baron at the death of his father, in 1828, then that of viscount after that of Eugène [his brother who went mad] in 1837, nobility recognised by Louis-Philippe at the moment of his nomination to the Chamber of Peers.

Chapitre 7
20 (I'd rather be called Alfred): Ce Théodule devait s'appler, primitivement, Ernest. On a déjà vu qu'Alfred était à la mode (I, 3, note 33) et Hugo ne devait guère aimer ce nom depuis que les deux Alfred – Vigny et Musset – s'étaient courageusement ralliés au second Empire.
Théodule was originally called Ernest. We have already seen that Alfred was fashionable (I, 3, note 33) and Hugo could hardly like this name since the two Alfreds – Vigny and Musset – courageously went over to the Second Empire.

21 (or right for Laroche-Guyon): Victor Hugo suivit le même itinéraire pour aller à Dreux, l'été 1821, - voir plus haut note 7. Il fit étape à La Roche-Gyuon, invité par le duc de Rohan, que l'on a entrevu dans l'épisode du couvent. Sur ce séjour, voir Victor Hugo raconté..., ouv. Cit., p. 341-345.
Victor Hugo followed the same itinerary to go to Dreux, in the summer of 1821 – see earlier note 7. He stopped off at La Roche-Guyon, invited by the Duke de Rohan, who we encountered in the convent episode. On this trip, see Victor Hugo Recounted . . ., op. Cit., p. 341-345.

Chapitre 8
22 (was hanging from a cord): Cette scène, cette boîte et son contenu font beaucoup penser à la page du Rouge et le Noir où Julien cache sous son matelas le portrait de Napoléon légué par le chirurgien-major, et suscite les jalousies de Mme de Rênal et d'Elisa, sa femme de chambre (I, chap. 9).
This scene, this box and its contents bring strongly to mind the page of The Red and the Black where Julien hides under his mattress the portrait of Napoleon left to him by the surgeon-major and arouses the jealousies of Mme de Rênal and of Elisa, her chambermaid (I, chapter 9).

23 (Bu-o-na-parté): Prononciation péjorative qui fait de Bonaparte un étranger. Marius lui-même la commentera en III, 4, 5.
Pejorative pronunciation that makes Bonaparte a foreigner. Marius himself will comment on it in III, 4, 5.

24 (and that fat pig Louis XVIII): Républicains et bonapartistes disaient de Louis XVIII << le cochon >> de même que les royalistes disaient << l'ogre >> de Napoléon.
Republicans and Bonapartists said of Louis XVIII “the pig” the same as Royalists said “the ogre” of Napoleon.
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Re: 3.3 Le grand-père et le petit-fils 16/2/11-23/2/11

Postby MmeBahorel » Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:55 am

Some additional notes I've put together.

Chapter 1
The Fualdès affair was the murder of local prosecutor Antonin Fualdès on orders of a right-wing royalist organization. Here briefly in English - the links within the wiki article go to the more detailed French pages.

This is the implication on Lamothe-Valois. Thus the idea of amnesty.

Chapter 2
Your full details on half the Napoleonic Wars, some of the battles listed out of chronological order:
Spires [Speyer] (1792), Worms (1792), Neustadt (1792), Turkheim (1792), Alzey (1792), Mayence [Mainz] (1792)
At this point, I think Victor is a little confused, because I sure as hell am confused. Mainz was taken in 1792. Then it was taken back in 1793. The fall of Mainz meant the Army of the Rhine was allowed to be sent back to France only if they did not take up arms again the Coalition. They got sent the Vendée. Which explains (sort of) how Pontmercy would end up in Belgium all of a sudden, but the dates aren't matching up too well for me right now (and neither is the geography, really). Unless he means the 1794-5 siege by the French at which Mainz was retaken. (There was a lot of fighting over Mainz.) But that would have to be listed after the Italian battles below.

Marchiennes (1793), Mont-Palissel [part of battlefield at Jemappes (1792)]
The Army of the Rhine merged with part of the Army of the Moselle in 1794. The first Army through the Col di Tenda was the Army of Italy, formed in 1792 from part of the Army of the Alps. Even with subsequent changes, this was very much an army of Southerners. Pontmercy may have been following General Biron, who got transfered from command of the Army of the Rhine to the Army of Italy for a couple of months in early 1793?

Col di Tende (1794), Lodi (1796), Novi (1799)
After Novi, the French Army had to evacuate Italy. I can't place the naval battle, but it's starting to sound like Sharpe - Pontmercy is such an awesome soldier, he was even involved in naval battles! (ok, I haven't read Sharpe's Trafalgar as the title makes me facepalm.) Still, Pontmercy's leaving because the French lost. There now appears a gap in his career, but Alexandria fits in here. (yet nothing else related to that campaign, so it looks like a weird outlier.)

Günzberg(1805), Wettingen [I think Wertingen (the day before Günzberg)], Austerlitz (1805)

Mantua (1796-7) [or when it was retaken by the Austrians in 1799 - or both, as the timing works out between Lodi and Novi]

Alexandria (1801) [the French arrived in 1798, but Pontmercy was a little busy getting kicked out of Italy in 1799]

Ulm (1805, a week after Günzberg), Hamburg (1806), Eylau (1807), Friedland (1807)
He gets to go home for a while here, get married, make a baby, before heading East again.

Moscow (1812) (and again, Pontmercy is so awesome, he survived the retreat from Moscow, after he survived the churchyard at Eylau!), Beresina (1812), Lutzen (1813), Bautzen (1813), Dresden (1813), Wachau [possibly part of Bautzen?], Leipzig (1813), Glenhausen (1813) [actually Gelnhausen, on the way to Hanau
Napoleon isn't doing too well here, getting chased all the way back through Austria and several German principalities. and then we get the real series of defeats in France itself.

Montmirail (1814), Chateau-Thierry (1814) (on the banks of the Marne), Caron is this guy, the banks of the Aisne [Craonne (1814)], Laon (1814)
I can't figure out Arney-le-Duc, as Google wants to tell me about a battle against the Huguenots in 1570. It's not far from Châtillon-sur-Seine, where Bonaparte had his peace conference, but I'm finding nothing where Pontmercy ought to have been killing cossacks in the area. The battles are a bit north of there, in the departments of Marne and Aisne, while Arney-le-Duc is in Bourgogne.

The first of January was a day for family visits, thus the meaning of having Marius write letters to his father then. St George's feast day is April 23.

Chapter 3
Secretary to Mme de Berry means “ultra of the highest order” - her husband, the duc de Berry, was assassinated in 1820 by Bonapartists, and her child, born after her husband's death, was rallied around by the legitimists for years.

Poor translation by FMA here: “A few of the less visible deputies” should really be “A few deputies of the unobtainable sort” - “du genre introuvable”, meaning members of the Chambre introuvable.

Trestaillon is the name of a man who, in Nimes, after the Hundred Days, went around at the head of a gang murdering Protestants, because the Protestant population had, in general, supported Bonaparte since Bonaparte gave them religious freedom and the right to hold government positions.

The Comte d'Artois is Charles X. Campaspe is Alexander the Great's mistress

Frayssinous and Beugnot.

The time since Coblentz – Koblenz was a principal place of exile for the émigrés during the Revolution.

Hugo's definition of “ultra” leaves out all the political orientation and yet is beautifully precise.

M. Martainville.

Fiévée, Agier, [url]http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Joseph_Colnet_Du_Ravel]Colnet[/url].

FMA's rendering as “secondary education” is “collège” - at the Restoration, the lycées were renamed “collèges royaux”, so at least Marius got out of the house some before law school. I'm assuming he was a day student, as that would be cheaper. At this point, the religious schools hadn't been allowed to re-open, otherwise I'm fairly sure he would have ended up in one of those. But I can't imagine Marius having many friends.

Chapter 8
You can check out the swimming schools on page 426. It's open May through October, so we know these scenes must take place in warm weather.

For your language-learning pleasure, “some abominable floozy” is “Quelque abominable goton”.

Louis XVIII died in September 1824, so we are definitely into 1828 by now. I work off the assumption that this is September 1828 when Marius gets kicked out, but Hugo's his usual vague self.

“Pistole” was an ancien regime coin worth 10 francs, the name surviving though the original coins were minted under Louis XIII in imitation of Spanish gold in circulation.
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Re: 3.3 Le grand-père et le petit-fils 16/2/11-23/2/11

Postby MmeBahorel » Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:57 am

And my comments on this book:

Chapter 2 – Pontmercy strikes me as more than a bit of a Gary Stu, as a few of those moves seem a bit overdone (and the whole “led a troop transport into battle and captured a British transport!” sounds completely fake). Of course, a large portion of those battles are French defeats even before we get to the retreat from Moscow, which puts sort of a different picture on things (and may link up with General Hugo's career – all that advancement in Spain, only for the Peninsular War to go sour and everything end up lost).

I sort of want to smack Victor for "This man, clearly manly, but who wept like a woman", except I suspect this is how Victor himself felt upon Léopoldine's death. It's skeevy phrasing for today, and even a little weird for the period (after a whole chapter of how awesomely manly Pontmercy is, we really need it repeated here?), but I do think the description is from the heart.

Chapter 3 - “It was a mummified world. The masters were embalmed, the valets were stuffed.” This makes a person feel sorry for Marius, a little kid dragged along to watch all this nonsense.

Chapter 4 – Emo!tear on a corpse! Oh, nineteenth century literature :)

Chapter 5 – I love this chapter title. Also, “more absent-minded and dreamy than usual” is to say “usually somewhat absent-minded and dreamy” - oh Marius, you make me facepalm already. “A hunting party with some friends – does Marius have friends? Does Marius have a gun? Are the fake friends bringing the fake guns? Of course M. Gillenormand thinks some love affair behind it – I suspect Hugo tried similar excuses on his mother.

Chapter 6 – This conversion has to be so much easier than Hugo's – after all, Pontmercy is dead, so the living man won't do anything wrong, and Pontmercy wasn't shacked up with a laundress while his wife was still alive. Hugo had to deal with a man of vastly different temper, while Marius is created somewhat in his father's image. We see the possibilities for bravery in his actions on the barricade, but he'd prefer the quiet retirement of a nice girl and a garden full of flowers. Georges couldn't be a prude, what with military life, but I suspect that's the biggest distinction of character when it comes down to it.

I love how Hugo hedges Marius' “OMG Revolution -> Empire YAY” - “It's probably necessary to indicate here what his amazement overlooked in this first far too synthetic appreciation. . . .” In other words, “Yes, he has it all wrong, but it'll get figured out later. Just go with it. He's a newbie.”

And yes, hanging out the window in the middle of the night, shouting “Vive l'empereur!”, I facepalm. Oh, Marius, you dolt. But here I still giggle over your doltishness – it isn't annoying yet.

And the confirmation that Marius has no friends to go hunting with, “he knew nobody and could not leave his cards at any door”. It's probably mean to laugh at him for having no friends, but he was an idiot to buy those calling cards. (also, LOL at the comparison to Werther.)

I'd like Marius to quit being such a prude and thus annoyed at his grandfather's awesomeness, but I acknowledge and appreciate the disgust for the cheap motives for which Gillenormand kept Pontmercy at a distance. One can hope Marius would have, in time, figured that much out even if he never wholly converted to Pontmercy's ideas, as it is simply inhuman to think the exchange of a father for that cloistered lifestyle was at all a good idea for any child, but I have to wonder if that would have been the case, or if Marius would have just distanced himself from his grandfather over personality conflict and never even considered the ways in which his life sucks because of the isolation his grandfather imposed on him.

Chapter 7 – “Not seeing people permits us to imagine them with every perfection.” So true. “It is always pleasant to see a lancer enter your room.” Victor, now you're just being dirty *g*.

I do like Théodule - he's really quite a sensible person. Particularly when he's muttering that he hates his name :) But seriously: he takes on the spying commission not because he's a nosy bastard like his aunt but because she is the giver of random presents of ten louis. It's mercenary, but when he discovers something personal, he hushes it up because he's not a bastard. If he were like his aunt, he would have written straight to her what he saw, but he's too upstanding to be a rat. He falls asleep, forgets all about the commission because the commission is ridiculous to him, and only when he thinks he failed does he care – about what he's going to write to her, not about his actual failure. He ends up following Marius not for the commission but for the possibility of seeing a pretty girl. And then, when he sees the truth, he shuts up about the whole thing, because it's private, and doesn't even bother to make up something to tell his nosy aunt. Just goes on his way, goes on with his life, because it's not his problem. I have to like him for that.

Chapter 8 – Marius, you should really have taken all your stuff with you. If you aren't concerned that someone will steal your money from your dressing room, why are you concerned someone might take your little box? Private dressing rooms – no one is going to laugh at you for having it. I'm going to cringe because of all you people swimming in the Seine, but that's a hygiene issue.

In short, oh, Marius, you're so facepalmy. Some of it's your upbringing, but some of it is just you.
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Re: 3.3 Le grand-père et le petit-fils 16/2/11-23/2/11

Postby Aurelia Combeferre » Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:53 am

I find Theodule more funny than likeable, but that's just me.

For all of Marius' doltishness, one has to give him some credit for that entire confrontation with his grandfather. Even if he did get the name of the King wrong. :D
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Re: 3.3 Le grand-père et le petit-fils 16/2/11-23/2/11

Postby Mamselle Miss » Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:54 am

MmeBahorel wrote:Pontmercy strikes me as more than a bit of a Gary Stu, as a few of those moves seem a bit overdone


I can't help but think that this is Hugo creating the father he always wanted. A brave soldier who tried to do right by his family in spite of his poverty. The opposite of General Hugo.
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Re: 3.3 Le grand-père et le petit-fils 16/2/11-23/2/11

Postby Ulkis » Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:36 pm

Chapter 5 – I love this chapter title. Also, “more absent-minded and dreamy than usual” is to say “usually somewhat absent-minded and dreamy” - oh Marius, you make me facepalm already. “A hunting party with some friends – does Marius have friends? Does Marius have a gun?


Heh. No to the friends, yes to the gun, probably covered with dust in a corner somewhere.

I love how Hugo hedges Marius' “OMG Revolution -> Empire YAY” - “It's probably necessary to indicate here what his amazement overlooked in this first far too synthetic appreciation. . . .” In other words, “Yes, he has it all wrong, but it'll get figured out later. Just go with it. He's a newbie.”


I remember when I first read the book, I was thinking, is Marius seriously going to be a supporter of Napoleon the whole time? I didn't know much about Napoleon but just in vaguely knew that he was trying to conquer everything around in him and that in general isn't usually a good thing, so I was quite relieved when Combeferre's "to be free" statement came.

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Re: 3.3 Le grand-père et le petit-fils 16/2/11-23/2/11

Postby Aurelia Combeferre » Sun Nov 17, 2013 9:22 pm

November 18, 2013

An Ancient Salon

http://www.online-literature.com/victor_hugo/les_miserables/168/

A slice of his society
"...all aptitudes having equal opportunity; politically, all votes having equal weight; religiously, all consciences having equal rights."

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Re: 3.3 Le grand-père et le petit-fils 16/2/11-23/2/11

Postby Aurelia Combeferre » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:51 pm

November 19, 2013

One of the Red Spectres of the Epoch

http://www.online-literature.com/victor_hugo/les_miserables/169/

What becomes of a colonel, baron, 'brigand', survivor of Waterloo....or simply a father missing his son.
"...all aptitudes having equal opportunity; politically, all votes having equal weight; religiously, all consciences having equal rights."

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Re: 3.3 Le grand-père et le petit-fils 16/2/11-23/2/11

Postby Aurelia Combeferre » Tue Nov 19, 2013 11:55 pm

November 20, 2013

Requiescant

http://www.online-literature.com/victor_hugo/les_miserables/170/

The background and initial makings of Marius Pontmercy.
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Re: 3.3 Le grand-père et le petit-fils 16/2/11-23/2/11

Postby Aurelia Combeferre » Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:47 pm

November 21, 2013

End of the Brigand

http://www.online-literature.com/victor_hugo/les_miserables/171/

An almost meeting between father and son
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Re: 3.3 Le grand-père et le petit-fils 16/2/11-23/2/11

Postby WhoIam » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:45 am

It says Gillenormand calls M. Pontmercy a slasher

I'm wondering why the woman who met Marius at the door was weeping. If she was his landlady (and I'm pretty sure she is) were people normally that well acquainted with their tenants? Was it just a reaction to his death? Or were they unusually close?
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Re: 3.3 Le grand-père et le petit-fils 16/2/11-23/2/11

Postby Aurelia Combeferre » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:59 am

What is a slasher supposed to mean?

I wouldn't put it past landlords and landladies to be acquainted very well with their tenants; Hugo gives a pretty good spectrum of landlord-tenant relations in the Brick alone.
"...all aptitudes having equal opportunity; politically, all votes having equal weight; religiously, all consciences having equal rights."


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