Let's talk about Éponine

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Marianne
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Let's talk about Éponine

Postby Marianne » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:21 pm

I'm going to assume all participants are on the same page on the following points:

1. Éponine is not a selfless virtuous romantic heroine who totally deserves Marius because of her Twu Wuv or whatever. If you think this, please lurk moar before posting. Also, Cosette-bashing is not cool, especially when it's done to prop up Éponine.
2. Nobody who's posting here actually thinks the selfless-romantic-heroine thing is true, and the existence of Eppie-boppers doesn't mean we all have to portray her as a psychotic ugly unwashed vengeful bitch in retaliation.
3. Éponine is not, as some Eppie-boppers claim, the most important character in Les Mis. She is fairly minor as these things go. However, this is the fandom with a forty-odd-page "Enjolras: top or bottom?" thread and lots of shameless fangirling of characters who get about three lines in the book. There is room to talk about Éponine without fifty bazillion "but she's not that important" disclaimers.

Everyone got it? Nobody trying to shut down the conversation or drag it back into the old, tired rut of Eppie-boppers vs. Eppie-bashers? Good, let's go.

There are a few things about Éponine that have been floating around in my head recently.

First of all, she is one of Hugo's few complex female characters. Cosette is a cipher who's more of a symbol than a real person, Fantine is there to Make A Point and grind it into the readers' faces, and the same goes for a lot of the female characters in his other works. Éponine is different because Hugo managed the same trick for her as for a lot of his male characters: she is a symbol and a real person at the same time. There she is representing the degradation of youth through poverty, and yet she has agency and a personality and interacts with the other characters on the non-symbolic plane. This is trademark Hugo here, and yet he doesn't often do it for female characters, he lets them wander off onto the symbolic plane and never come back to earth. It's a fascinating trick--he did the same thing with Enjolras, and that's part of what makes him so charming and so difficult to write. Éponine is arguably more nuanced than Enjolras, and the integration between the symbol and the real person certainly works better for her. It makes it so maddening to see nothing but simplified, misconstrued fanon versions of her floating around the fandom.

Like Misery Sues. Now that we've got Eppie-boppers and Eppie-bashers out of the way, let's talk about Misery Sue Éponine. I know you've seen her around. She hasn't eaten in three days, Thénardier beats her for no reason and is gratuitously sadistic to her, Montparnasse rapes her every night with kinky nonconsensual knifeplay thrown in, she was sold as a prostitute to Patron-Minette at the age of ten so her father could get admission into the gang, and Gueulemer just drowned her favorite puppy. And Our Virtuous Beat-Up Heroine is kicking and screaming the whole way, because face it, wouldn't you be kicking and screaming if so much gratuitously awful shit happened to you?

STOP IT.

The book is more subtle at showing that Éponine's life sucked, and the book is not particularly subtle as these things go. If Éponine is getting whored out, it's not being locked in a room with six naked gang members, it's being sent on "errands" with misspelled notes that say "plz give us money, our daughter is at your disposal." Marius might be too virginal to get what that meant, but let's face it, if Éponine's degradation includes sexual degradation, that is probably how it operates. And she's not kicking and screaming. She might not like it, but she's putting up and shutting up because that's what it takes to get food on the table, and nobody ever taught her otherwise. We're not talking violent coercion here. We're talking inexorable weight of circumstances pressing down on her. I know it makes for less melodramatic fanfic, but that's how it works.

And then there's Marius.

I think it's pretty obvious that Éponine loves Marius as a symbol more than a person, and that for Hugo this kind of love is still powerful and valid and has redemptive force. What is Marius to her, then? I don't think she looks to him as her ticket out of poverty, or the represents the better life of higher social classes. I'm not sure she even realizes he comes from a privileged background. I think that to her, he represents Virtuous Poverty, the possibility that you can be poor as dirt like Éponine is and not be corrupted by it. It's something that's partly attainable for her--she stops speaking argot, for example, after she falls for Marius--but not entirely, since society more-or-less considers her degradation uneraseable. ("You don't want to be seen with a woman like me.") Of course, to be Virtuously Poor it sure as hell helps to have a classical education and be able to just sit down and learn a couple languages and have law-student friends you can borrow from and have an incredibly touchy sense of pride instilled in you by your royalist grandfather. Éponine has none of these things.

I don't think fandom always does Éponine justice. She's a teenager who's been horribly marked and twisted by the position she's in, who by all rights should be just as nasty as her parents, and yet there's an irrepressible fount of spiritual and physical beauty in her, struggling desperately to get out. The degradation doesn't erase her intrinsic goodness, and yet her intrinsic goodness doesn't magically make the degradation go away or become unimportant: she's groping blindly in the dark for something better than what she's got, and her screwed-upness sometimes twists her desperate struggling into something ugly and harmful. No wonder she appears mentally unstable and Hugo compares her to Ophelia: she's drowning and doesn't know which way to the surface.
[Dieu] entend ta voix, ô fille des hommes! aussi bien que celle des constellations; car rien n'est petit pour celui devant lequel rien n'est grand.
- George Sand, Les sept cordes de la lyre

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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby a_marguerite » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:27 pm

Ooh, fascinating points. I'll respond more in depth once I've had time to think more/ look up critical reviews on JSTOR like I've been planning to for ages, but I wanted to comment on the Ophelia connection.

Ophelia was a powerful Romantic symbol (Goethe compares Gretchen/Marguerite to her in Faust, for example) not only because of that edge of madness and misery, but also because she made her escape from a world that was essentially false and morally wrong through art. When she goes mad she sings, which is why I think it's particularly important that Hugo mentions that Éponine attends the theatre, and has her singing nonsense songs in her rambles to Marius. Her escape is through art- which is, I think, not only a justification of necessity of art, and of Romanticism in particular, but Hugo pointing out how one can make an escape from brutalizing poverty. The life of the imagination and the mind nourishes the soul, and that necessary escape for Éponine I think hints at her method of salvation/ the way Hugo theorizes all the impovirshed can be saved, though elevating art (don't make me find the speech where Robespierre praises the educative role of the theatre, please) and through education.

Grabbing onto that- Éponine can read. She tries to impress Marius with that knowledge and, what is more important, he has the means of using, applying and acquiring that knowledge. Since a huge part of Hugo's ideal republic rests on education, he's moving into heavy symbolism territory- yet he shows these symbolic actions with a remarkable delicacy and a very idyosincratic application (though I think Enjolras is probably Hugo's best example of a character that is at once a Person and an Abolute Symbol, one could compare Éponine's argot for 'the cops are coming' ( the tragedy of the societal pressures against the working class and how the tools that ought to be used to let them enter society are instead employed in keeping them out of it) to Enjolras's treatment of Le Cabuc (the Republic, in killing, kills itself; the Revolution very logically judging itself by its own standards).

Something that I've wondered about, actually- Hugo was heavily involved in the theatre (he even mentions his own Hernani in one of M. Gillenormand's rants). Is there deeper significance to Gavroche and Éponine befriending actors, or is it one of those details he throws in to show what life was like in 1832 Paris?

Aaaand... hm, I wanted to discuss the point you made about Fantine, as, since writing the above, I found a really fascinating essay on mother imagery in 19th century representations of the Republic, but I think I'll start a new thread on that later.

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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby Marianne » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:05 pm

There's also the interpretation that Ophelia goes mad because that's the only form of control she has left: she spends the whole play getting jerked around and manipulated by her fiancé, her father, her brother, her potential in-laws, and the only way to make it stop is to sever ties with reality. That interpretation is probably more applicable to Éponine, who's spent her whole life under the corrupting influence of her parents and, later, the crushing weight of poverty. If her entire life after she meets Marius is an extended mad scene, the madness is her attempt to finally claim something for herself.

For Éponine the importance of art is downplayed: Hugo tosses in a lot of flower imagery and has her singing under her breath all the time, but I get the impression that these are explicit references to Ophelia (and all she represents to the Romantics) rather than an attempt to show Éponine escaping through art. Her big escape, and her big shot at redemption, is through love. The art is more of a coping mechanism.

I also don't think it's accidental that Hugo has her refer to drowning at least twice: once when she contemplates throwing herself in the Seine, once when she says she doesn't care if Patron-Minette kill her and her body washes out of the river a month later.
[Dieu] entend ta voix, ô fille des hommes! aussi bien que celle des constellations; car rien n'est petit pour celui devant lequel rien n'est grand.

- George Sand, Les sept cordes de la lyre

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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby MmeBahorel » Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:34 pm

Back to "Virtuous Poverty" - the other issue here is that Marius, in being virtuous, is able in a sense to exert the privilege inherent in his gender. Not just that he has access to higher paid forms of virtuous work (Thenardier talks about how much it would cost to set up the girls making cardboard boxes, and while it's a scam, I suspect the figures are true, or true enough, otherwise it wouldn't be much of a scam) but that no matter how degraded he might have been elsewhere, a young man in a dark suit, living alone and performing "intellectual" labour will generally be given the benefit of the doubt as to his "honesty", while a girl living alone is going to be watched carefully for signs that she's covering up her utter sluttishness (because she has neither father nor husband nor female chaperone, so something's obviously wrong here). Witness how the concierge, when he disappears, only then assumes he had anything to do with anything and is going "but he seemed like such a nice young man" - the timing, and not his other actions, are what put the thought of his "wrongness" into her head.

Éponine, having been sexually active with Parnasse, is forever tainted, not only by her upbringing (which she might see as possibly overcomeable through the influence/example of Marius, the idea of going somewhere no one knows you and setting up honestly), but by her own actions, according to how society functions at this time. She will never be able to be seen as "honest" because she, having grown up in that society, will always see herself as tainted. (which is interesting, in that marriage rates were fairly low for the lower classes, because migration made it difficult to get the necessary copies of birth certificates, both from a need to write to the town of one's birth and the need to pay for copies and to have them sent. But to be accorded the idea of "honesty", one did have to take up with a partner in a formal manner, which Parnasse isn't exactly going to do for Éponine. These relationships sometimes lasted for life, though many lasted for five years or less. Still, they generally lasted more than a year and no stigma was attached within the neighbourhood. The stigma traveled down from the bourgeoisie.) But Hugo is a bourgeois writer with a bourgeois audience.

Essentially, Marius can be seen as potentially honest because he is a man; Éponine has to be stated to be potentially honest because she'll never be actually seen that way because she is a woman. She has no way out, and that's been demonstrated already through the example of Fantine, that the female "virtuous poor" are screwed if they have ever taken a step out of line, and Éponine has been out of bounds for ages. Thus her redemption can be spiritual, but never social.
What kind of literature and what kind of life is the same question. - Tom Stoppard

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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby Marianne » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:06 pm

Whatever Marius represents to Éponine in terms of a better life, the narrative pretty much shows it to be unattainable in the society she's in. I'm leaning more and more towards Virtuous Poor rather than some other idea of 'better life,' just because there are so many clues toward it--dropping argot, but also the creepy interest she takes in whether or not Marius' clothes are in good condition and offering to mend them for him and almost scolding him. Because she has this image of him as the nice handsome neighbor boy who's just as poor as we are but manages his money better and does honest work and takes care of himself and is clean and orderly, while we live in a filthy attic and swindle bourgeois for a living.

And yeah, I almost got into the unavailability of decently-paid honest work for single women, but what you said is equally valid. You can work in a factory (and have it be assumed that you have loose morals), or as a seamstress (see Discworld for more on "seamstresses"), or as a domestic servant (with a horny old goat who thinks the chambermaids are there for the taking), or as a shop-girl (and have your concierge gossip that hats aren't the only thing you're selling), or... and no matter what you do, you get suspicion and scrutiny, men thinking you're a slut so you must be available, punishment for being a slut if you give in, retaliation for being a stuck-up frigid bitch if you don't*. No benefit of the doubt. Virtuous poverty for Éponine = impossible, and she knows it, and she keeps flailing for the spiritual redemption anyway even if socially she is screwed.



* IMO the musical did a really good job showing this with Fantine. She doesn't give in to the foreman's advances, she has no right not to give in to the foreman's advances because she's not lily-white, who does she think she is the presumptuous bitch, and out she goes for... being a slut. She's being punished for not repeating her original mistake, because as soon as she put a toe out of line she was no better than a gutter whore and no longer had the right of refusal. Honestly I like this better than nosy old Mme Victurnien in the book.
[Dieu] entend ta voix, ô fille des hommes! aussi bien que celle des constellations; car rien n'est petit pour celui devant lequel rien n'est grand.

- George Sand, Les sept cordes de la lyre

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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby Ulkis » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:23 am

Of course, to be Virtuously Poor it sure as hell helps to have a classical education and be able to just sit down and learn a couple languages

Heh. And of course, it helps to be a man. But your point remains.

[I think Éponine genuinely loves Marius as a person. It just makes her story more poignant for me, the same way it would render it pointless if Marius ever actually returned her feelings at all. Both the unrequited and the love parts are true for me. Not that that means I think she didn't ever have a chance of moving past it.

Fantine is there to Make A Point and grind it into the readers' faces

Sorry, drifting to Fantine a minute - I do appreciate how Fantine has her own story, in a way. It has a beginning, middle, and end, it revolves around her, and not in the same way that everything revolves around Esmeralda but it doesn't really matter if she opens her mouth or not. Yeah, it ends tragically, but still.

And yeah, Éponine doesn't martyr herself unnecessarily - just look at the first scene where she talks to Marius. She loses the letters and just tells Thenardier that she delivered them. Clever and practical.

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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby Lara » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:06 am

Wow, great points here.

I think one of the main problems with Éponine in the musical is that the songs and lyrics are all focused on HIM and Marius as the human being, which certainly simplifies the relationship but makes it much less interesting.

I would add something more helpful to this but I can't think of anything just yet.

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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby Marianne » Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:39 am

Lara wrote:Wow, great points here.

I think one of the main problems with Éponine in the musical is that the songs and lyrics are all focused on HIM and Marius as the human being, which certainly simplifies the relationship but makes it much less interesting.

I would add something more helpful to this but I can't think of anything just yet.


*facepalm* I've been trying to put my finger on what bugged me about musical!Éponine and I can't believe I never realized. I mean, there are a million things that bug me about musical!Éponine, but you've hit the nail on the head: a complex character with complex issues of her own, reduced to being defined by the dude in her life. In the book, Marius was just the object Éponine was taking her issues out on, and her issues took center stage for her character. In the musical? Him, him, him, goddammit girl don't you have a personality?

This is dredging up memories of the first time I sang On My Own in voice lessons, before I knew Les Mis very well. I thought it was an awesome song and could totally relate to the wandering around living a world inside your head part, and just sort of pretended it was about a fantasy-world that happened to be constructed around an unrequited crush object. Which I would never construct a fantasy-world around, but hey, to each her own. I think deep down I knew it was all about the unrequited crush object, and the fantasy world was just an elaborate metaphor to prop it up, but I stayed in denial as long as I could.
[Dieu] entend ta voix, ô fille des hommes! aussi bien que celle des constellations; car rien n'est petit pour celui devant lequel rien n'est grand.

- George Sand, Les sept cordes de la lyre

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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby Ulkis » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:08 am

I think 'On My Own' in regards to Éponine's characterization is tolerable, but Little Fall of Rain I can't bear to listen to because I cringe in embarassment. If I find something too corny I can't listen/watch it. And that song is just super over-the-top shmaltz in a musical full of it.

To be fair to the musical, Éponine does get one tiny moment where she reflects on her poverty and is non-Marius centered in Éponine's Errand. And then Marius comes in two seconds later and she's back to him, but even there she gets to call Cosette bourgeois and has the 'I don't want your money sir' line.

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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby Lara » Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:10 am

I recently sat down and actually listened to some of Éponine's songs because my friends told me that they had cast me as Éponine in a 'what if we did Les Mis next year' situation. And I was thinking how it's horrible that Éponine's character portrayal relies on Marius so much. You could have a wonderfully canon Éponine but a Marius that treats her like his biffle would throw it off entirely. Thinking about it now, this is really annoying. Éponine's character in the musical is so Marius-centered that she's just completely stripped of any other purpose and can't even express who she is without the help of Marius.

I think that there should be a scene in the musical of her before she becomes obsessed with Marius. The musical introduces her in "omgomgomgMarius" mode and we really never get any contrast between Éponine and Eponine-focused-on-Marius. I know that wouldn't really fit in with that fast pace of the musical BUT OH WELL.

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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby MusicalTwin » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:38 pm

Yay, THIS is truly a topic for me! 8) I'm sorry it took me so long to be able to finally contribute. :roll: But that said:

You have all very good points here! And I'm saying that being a huge Éponine fan (nah... who'd have guessed?! *lol*) but non-bopper. ^^ Yes, it IS possible indeed. Just believe me. ;) :P

I have to admit: I totally agree with you about the things you stated. To me, Éponine isn't an idolized beauty, nor a Misery Sue, as it's been called. She is a very complex character and her actions, especially in regards to Marius, are far from unselfish. Her life IS pretty hard, no doubt about that, but she still doesn't wail about it the whole time. Sure, she'll pretty sure have her moments when she reflects her life and conclude that it's not fair but ultimately I think that she has come to terms with her life and situation.

The relationships between her and Montparnasse and her family are very difficult and a lot is left open for interpretation here by Hugo, I think. There are vague suggestions here and there but in the end, it's true: Éponine is too "insignificant" (meaning that she indeed is no main character) relating to the whole book, to be clearly observed. What I mean by that is that we don't have that many situations in the book that focus on her and that could tell us more about it. In fact, there IS no scene where she, for example, gets a thrashing from her father or where she IS traded to Montparnasse or the Patron Minette and where she is with them on that purpose. (Or am I wrong here???) It's all just hints and suggestions.

So my conclusion about book Éponine is, that she is not the most precise character there is in the book and not by any stretch of the imagination one of the REALLY important ones (although, of course, she has her share in the story). There is much space for imagination and interpretations which, as we all know, has inspired lots of fanfics. To me, she still is an adorable character though. Even in the book. xD She definitely has her moments (although, lets face it: she is somewhat loony... isn't she? kind of? *bg*)!

As for musical Éponine...: now that you mentioned it, it really is alarming how much all her existence is connected with Marius. It's really like he's the only reason for her to exist in the musical. It's like, in terms of the storyline, her existence is purely justified to "serve" Marius. I hope you get what I mean for I'm not sure whether I was able to express that correctly. :oops: I never realized that so immensely as I do now. Well, maybe it's actually not THAT extreme but still: the way her whole role is constructed in the musical she really is all about Marius and her unhappy and unreturned love for him. So I totally agree with Lara here! She should have a pre-in-love-with-Marius scene or at least an additional scene within the current frame that has nothing to do with Marius. Like another intercation with her family or the Patron Minette that has nothing to do with Marius. Or perhaps a scene with Gavroche. THAT'd be adorable. And another benefit of that would be: also solely musical fans would become aware that they're actually brother and sister. xD (Okay - on the other hand that might probably raise questions as to why the Thénardiers don't care a bit for him and why they have nothing to do with each other really - but hey... that'd be solvable, somehow...) I'd love that! Maybe an encounter at the barricade or something. Or just a random errand scene or so. You see: there would be SO many possibilities.

Well, that's all I can think of to say for now. So... maybe some of you agree or disagree?! Come on, lets keep this going! :)
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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby Marianne » Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:22 pm

MusicalTwin wrote:In fact, there IS no scene where she, for example, gets a thrashing from her father or where she IS traded to Montparnasse or the Patron Minette and where she is with them on that purpose. (Or am I wrong here???) It's all just hints and suggestions.


There's no scene because the latter didn't happen. It's purely an invention of fanon--I guess somebody decided Éponine didn't have enough angst in the original or something.

The thing is that we see the abuse happening, people just ignore it because it's not in textbook form.

Éponine doesn't get whored out to Patron-Minette, and apparently that is the only form of prostitution people can think of besides 'streetwalker,' because they don't seem to see that she's getting sent around to beg money from rich people at whatever cost. "Whatever cost" is not always going to be an explicit agreement. In fact, the client has more power when there's no explicit agreement: "spread your legs and I give you the money" is pretty direct. "Well I don't really have that much money to give to charity, but a pretty girl always makes an impression on me, wink wink" is a way to induce her to offer up sex for the possibility of a charity visit. That's probably how it worked.

Likewise, we don't see Thénardier giving his kids a whipping, and apparently that is the only form of child abuse people recognize. This one's interesting, because the reason Hugo doesn't show them getting beaten probably has something to do with the fact that most kids in that time period got a good thrashing from time to time. It wouldn't register as abuse unless it were deemed excessive. Making your kid break a window and then telling her to shut up when she has a giant bleeding gash on her hand? Now that's abusive, even by 19th century standards.

That's how Thénardier operates. It's not textbook abuse, it's arguably worse--and it's inevitably profit driven. I can't see him smacking his kids around just for the pure joy of it.
[Dieu] entend ta voix, ô fille des hommes! aussi bien que celle des constellations; car rien n'est petit pour celui devant lequel rien n'est grand.

- George Sand, Les sept cordes de la lyre

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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby MmeBahorel » Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:47 pm

I also wonder if Mme Thenardier is a victim of psychological abuse from her husband. I can see it as a possibility, at least. Everyone, including her, seems to tiptoe around him. the question is whether it even occurred to Hugo that psychological abuse exists. It could also be read in to Babet's treatment of his wife.

Psychological abuse is the real reason battered women stay with their abusers, and it's only lately being seriously recognised. But I think the potential to see that in Thenardier's interactions with his family is there. The question is, is it really there? Is it a valid reading?

(and Éponine probably isn't being raped by Parnasse if we assume that rape means "physically coerced into having sexual relations", which I think is the fanon definition. She is permitting herself to be used however he wants, possibly because he's hot and because the good graces of Patron Minette are the only thing keeping the Thenardier family from all rotting in jail because her father is really crap at this. It's prostitution rather than rape, in that there is consent on the basis of potential gain. If Éponine really wanted out, she could easily go disappear into any of the other slum quarters and whore herself out or scrabble among the rag pickers or any other options that are probably no shittier than her current situation, awful as that sounds. She doesn't really want out, either because she's stuck in her father's cycle of psychological abuse or because she has too much loyalty to her sister and possibly mother. Or even both: it is possible to see suicide as *the* way out since she's "obviously" no good to anyone and "only" her father would ever put up with her, and she does contemplate that route.)

if I did some rereading, I might be able to pick out some textbook psychological abuse.
What kind of literature and what kind of life is the same question. - Tom Stoppard

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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby Marianne » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:40 pm

Jess, have you read George Sand's Horace? It's a brilliant deconstruction of psychological abuse, and it is scarily textbook considering the term didn't even exist yet. She pins down the abuser's modus operandi with frightful accuracy. It is also set in 1832 and has Saint-Simonianism and revolutionary shenanigans as subplots--as well as a bizarrely Balzac/Stendhal-esque subplot where Horace tries to worm his way into the graces of an aristocratic lady. And skillful use of a biased narrator--narrator seems nice enough except that he keeps trying to make excuses for Horace 'cause he's a buddy of his, and it just makes the reader hate Horace even more.

The narrator's excuse-making also reminds us that an abuser is not necessarily a sociopath--in fact, the patterns of abuse mainly stem from Horace's need to prop up his over-inflated but delicate ego. Narrator seems to think this is sufficient justification for the readers to take pity on him; narrator's girlfriend, whom he lives with in utopian Saint-Simonian equality, is not so lenient, and thinks Horace is a total asshole pretty much from the beginning.

It's really kind of an awesome book. Sand sometimes loses her readers when she decides to wax philosophical in her other books, but here she has an axe to grind and she grinds it with marvellous efficiency.
[Dieu] entend ta voix, ô fille des hommes! aussi bien que celle des constellations; car rien n'est petit pour celui devant lequel rien n'est grand.

- George Sand, Les sept cordes de la lyre

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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby Ulkis » Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:18 pm

Sorry, off-topic for a moment but since you mentioned Sand Marianne, that reminds me - what's the book Sand wrote that you said, I think, was some big gothic romance where SPOILER the bride and groom are getting married and one of them dies/collapses at the altar? END SPOILER thanks


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