Let's talk about Éponine

Meta related to characters, plots, or other elements introduced by Victor Hugo in Les Misérables.
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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby Beezer » Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:56 pm

I agree on all points. I always got a booty call/friends with benefits vibe from them in the Brick. I wonder where in fanon did sadist, rapist Montparnesse first appear? I mean, sure he's a violent criminal, but there's no evidence that he's any more violent with Éponine than your average 19th century guy.

I don't care for the puppy dog Monty, either. No way was he following her around and cursing Marius. They were probably both pretty indifferent to one another except on the occasions when they could benefit from one another's company.

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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby lesmisloony » Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:26 am

Now we're getting into territory I can really talk about.

Nice points there again. It's funny how this thread suddenly turned into a discussion of not-so-hetereosexuality...

But about Éponine again...and this time her relationship with Montparnasse.

Rereading the Brick has convinced me that to a large degree, Éponine's relationship with Montparnasse is something she got into voluntarily. I think there's a lot more between them than the fanon cliches of Thenardier whoring her out to Montparnasse, or Montparnasse just using her for sex...

Case in point: Of all of the members of Patron-Minette, Montparnasse is the one that Éponine addresses in the most familiar manner during the Rue Plumet incident ("How goes it with you?" in the MacAfee-Fahnestock translation). If Montparnasse was just another client of hers (unwillingly), she might have addressed him as Monsieur. But the familiarity they have with each other suggests otherwise: holding hands (and him warning her about his lingre), her begging him not to go through with the robbery (because he is a good boy, in her own words!).


Yep, and she even calls him "Mon petit Montparnasse" while she calls all the others "Monsieur Babet" and "Monsieur Claquesous" and the like.

Case in point 2: Montparnasse somehow seems to be almost part of the Thenardier family in a weird way---something which I doubt the rest of Patron-Minette could ever do. And it is strongly suggested that Éponine could be part of the reason for this connection. For one thing, Gavroche is practically on joking terms with the boy, which does suggest that somehow Montparnasse is more than just a business acquaintance to the family. Thenardier does not seem to be overly surprised when Montparnasse fails to show up at the Gorbeau house ambush on Valjean. The explanation that Parnasse is having a chat with Éponine somehow seems to be acceptable enough to Thenardier. And Mme. Thenardier does not react aversely either to this fact. I forgot where it is, but I think Hugo also describes Montparnasse as being almost like Thenardier's son-in-law.


Yep, during the prison escape it says he was his unofficial father-in-law or something to that effect (I'm just reciting these from memory).

I could imagine Éponine and Montparnasse as being sweethearts or lovers out of convenience. They're a 19th century case of the "it's complicated" relationship: together but maybe not dating in the conventional sense?


I definitely think that if there's a thing between these two, it would never be anything remotely resembling boyfriend-girlfriend. Definitely more like a f*** buddy. Largely because Éponine seems really lonely and I absolutely doubt Montparnasse would ever consider someone so dirty his official mistress, if that makes sense.

I agree on all points. I always got a booty call/friends with benefits vibe from them in the Brick. I wonder where in fanon did sadist, rapist Montparnesse first appear? I mean, sure he's a violent criminal, but there's no evidence that he's any more violent with Éponine than your average 19th century guy.

I don't care for the puppy dog Monty, either. No way was he following her around and cursing Marius. They were probably both pretty indifferent to one another except on the occasions when they could benefit from one another's company.


I have most definitely been guilty of writing both of those. Gah. My big entrance to the fandom (outside of stupid script parodies) was a massive fic that I said at the time was Montparnasse's life story, but it was just a giant collection of nervous preteen angst and moments ripped straight out of my favourite movies. For shame. There was definitely a ton of Montparnasse-fic before my big piece of purple slop, but I'm worried that the blame for wibbly puppy Montparnasse could easily be thrown my way...

...*shifty eyes*

I am working on a complete rethink of my version of Montparnasse, though! I just... never update it.
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Aurelia Combeferre
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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby Aurelia Combeferre » Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:01 am

lesmisloony wrote:
I could imagine Éponine and Montparnasse as being sweethearts or lovers out of convenience. They're a 19th century case of the "it's complicated" relationship: together but maybe not dating in the conventional sense?


I definitely think that if there's a thing between these two, it would never be anything remotely resembling boyfriend-girlfriend. Definitely more like a f*** buddy. Largely because Éponine seems really lonely and I absolutely doubt Montparnasse would ever consider someone so dirty his official mistress, if that makes sense.

I agree on all points. I always got a booty call/friends with benefits vibe from them in the Brick. I wonder where in fanon did sadist, rapist Montparnesse first appear? I mean, sure he's a violent criminal, but there's no evidence that he's any more violent with Éponine than your average 19th century guy.

I don't care for the puppy dog Monty, either. No way was he following her around and cursing Marius. They were probably both pretty indifferent to one another except on the occasions when they could benefit from one another's company.


I have most definitely been guilty of writing both of those. Gah. My big entrance to the fandom (outside of stupid script parodies) was a massive fic that I said at the time was Montparnasse's life story, but it was just a giant collection of nervous preteen angst and moments ripped straight out of my favourite movies. For shame. There was definitely a ton of Montparnasse-fic before my big piece of purple slop, but I'm worried that the blame for wibbly puppy Montparnasse could easily be thrown my way...

I am working on a complete rethink of my version of Montparnasse, though! I just... never update it.


Aw come on, Loony, I actually liked that fic (Charmer of the Shadows, am I correct?) It had at least a more fleshed out depiction of Montparnasse! And I'd love to see your reworking of Montparnasse.

One thing which I have seen (and have been extremely guilty of THRICE in the fandom) is Éponine actually being chummy with Les Amis del'ABC. The best take I've seen on this concept is TheHighestPie's fic "Playing Pygmalion": realistic, with some disdain on Éponine's side and the boys' side (save for the one who was partial to her company). Sure, one can argue it's part of Alternative Universe, but still...in hindsight it seems out of character for such a thing to happen and come up roses.

Although I wouldn't put it past Éponine to have met, or even slightly fancied any of these boys, I doubt she would have been in a functional relationship with any of them. Even Feuilly. For one thing, the guys probably have better choices of feminine company (and if they are Enjolras, Combeferre, or Feuilly, probably little time to indulge these as well). And Éponine wouldn't care a fig for their ideas of liberte, egalite, and fraternite...unless she was fed first maybe. And that would fling the fic into AU.

I was considering reworking the fic that probably started off some of the bad cliches...better characterizations of Éponine, the guys of Les Amis del'ABC, and a better explanation of the politics that allowed such a strange set up to begin with.
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Marianne
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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby Marianne » Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:07 pm

This post got me thinking about Éponine again. Specifically: what is the difference between a Woobie and a Misery Sue?

The definition of a woobie is pretty clearly given at that link. 'Misery Sue' is a less well-documented term, but a familiar phenomenon: author thinks the definition of a Mary Sue is 'sparkly and perfect and special with no effort or trouble,' thinks that adding a traumatic past and lots of angst to her sparkly canon-invading OC will make her not a Sue, and Misery Sue is born. (I might've pulled the name out my ass, but at least one other site uses it and anyone who's been in a Mary-Sue-prone fandom will recognize the trope.) So a Misery Sue, to my mind, is an Oh So Virtuous character who's meant to come off as sympathetic and admirable solely due to the cookie-cutter angst and trauma the author has dumped upon them in spades.

It annoys me when people do this to Éponine, because it's an overly simplistic way to deal with her character. But the too-casual use of the Mary-Sue label also annoys me, because it's a way to hold female characters to a different standard than male characters, and the demonization of Mary Sues is often unnecessarily vitriolic. And I've used the phrase 'Misery Sue Éponine' to refer to a subset of Éponine fic, without really considering this, which makes me feel skeevy despite the little voice in the back of my head going "but it's an accurate description!"

So what I'm asking is, is there a male/female double standard for suffering? Woobies tend to be overwhelmingly male, Mary Sues (including Misery Sues) overwhelmingly female.

Here are the differences between the tropes, as far as I see them:

- Misery Sue encompasses solely the bad end of "fic about a character's suffering." The implication is that the author is trying to earn sympathy points by gratuitously making a character's life horrible, and that the angst and trauma are completely formulaic. It's 100% perjorative. Woobie, on the other hand, is one of those self-deprecating fandom terms that acknowledge that the woobiefication is totally for the sake of hitting emotional kinks, but admit the possibility of really good (and really enjoyable) fic that does this, alongside the usual dreck.

- The woobie trope has a significant hurt/comfort component. The audience is supposed to simultaneously want to relieve the woobie's suffering, and perversely enjoy watching because it gives them those comfort urges, or because "he suffers so beautifully," or whatever. The idea behind a Misery Sue is more that the character earns Sympathy Points that add to her eventual Isn't My Character Awesome quotient--and that this is the only reason behind the suffering.

- In other words, the tropes have different goals. The goal of Misery Sue is to make the character look good (by means of showing all the bad stuff that's been done to them, demanding the reader's pity, and flaunting the character's continuing virtue in the face of All This Trauma). The goal of a woobie is to make the reader want to comfort the character. Or, refining it even further, woobies channel suffering into catharsis, Misery Sues use suffering to establish a character trait.

Obviously there are sexist implications in the divide between a mostly-male trope that encompasses the whole gamut of fic from horrible to brilliant, and a mostly-female trope that applies exclusively to badfic. And it makes me uneasy to have referred to a subset of Éponine badfic as 'Misery Sue' without reflecting first. Is fic about Misery Sue Éponine a separate phenomenon? Or is it just the bad end of a fandom-wide tendency to cast Éponine as the woobie?

What I'm trying to say is, we've all probably seen fic where Éponine gets shat on by all creation. Thénardier beats her, various members of Patron-Minette rape her, Montparnasse does his knife practice on her, she has to sell herself to get something to eat and then Thénardier takes the money, and to top it all off, Marius doesn't love her. My question is, what's the point of the suffering in these fics? Is it for the catharsis of watching her endure, all the while wanting to scoop her up off the streets and give her a bath and a nice square meal and swear that nobody will ever hit her again? Or is it to make her look more virtuous for having endured all that, and be able to write off her flaws as merely things that were inflicted on her with no complicity on her part?

I lean towards the latter--there's very little suggestion or hope of comfort in these fics, only grim endurance. And I suspect they sprang up in response to the "Éponine was a filthy toothless stalker who wasn't right in the head (and I like her that way)" idea (itself an imperfect reaction to "Éponine was a selfless romantic heroine who totally deserved Marius" back in the days of yore). These fics are a heavy-handed defense: "Éponine might've been a filthy toothless stalker who wasn't right in the head, but it wasn't her fault."

The relationship with the musical is interesting in this case. Because these fics achieve something the musical doesn't: they focus on Éponine's life, of which Marius is just a part. Her unrequited love becomes one more trauma to add to the heap. The musical, on the other hand, constructs her entire character around Marius and the fact that Marius doesn't love her. The musical does the woobie-catharsis thing really well, presenting her angst and pain and suffering in a way that makes the audience desperately want to fix it--by having Marius end up with Éponine instead of Cosette. The show is set up to make you want this. In a way, woobie Éponine caused Misery Sue Éponine, because the idolization of Éponine and the urge to defend her come directly from the musical: it's a defense of your right to catharsis, your right to adore Éponine because she lets you purge your own demons of unrequited love/feeling cheated of the nice things everyone is supposed to have. But people get attached to her whole character, not just the cathartic aspects, so they feel the need to defend her in general, even if it makes her lose what originally made her compelling in the musical. Hence Misery Sue Éponine: you can't relate to her, you no longer desperately want to heal her trauma, because her trauma is what makes her virtuous and defends her against the "crazy unattractive stalker" accusation. But she gains something in the process, which is a life and identity outside of Marius, even if it's almost entirely defined by her role as a passive victim.

(And the role of her suffering in the book is a completely different beast that probably merits a separate post. It's not entirely cathartic, because the reader is meant to view her as somewhat Other; it's definitely not for sympathy points to be counted towards an eventual Awesome Quotient; it's partly but not entirely illustrative. And by illustrative I mean suffering like Fantine's: meant to prove a point, not about the character but about society. book!Éponine's issues are partly but not entirely like that.)
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ivrogne transfiguré
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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby ivrogne transfiguré » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:08 pm

I agree with most of what you've said.
I also think that, in writing fanfiction, there is a tendency to kind of caricaturise characters. That is, to take one aspect of their character and exaggerate it, while largely ignoring others. This is, I think, probably one of the main causes of the many OOC Enjolrasses out there - he has so many different traits, many of which are hard to reconcile, and this leads to many of the stereotypical fanon Enjolrasses that we see around. But coming back to Éponine, I think that many fanfic authors find what they feel to be her 'defining characteristic', and base their own characterisations (and sometimes even plot) around this. A lot of people reading the book and particularly seeing the musical will see her poverty and her general bad life and suffering and take this to be the main aspect of her character, the motive for all her actions and maybe even 'the thing that means Marius won't like her'. This can lead to both an over-simplification of her character, and lead to an Éponine who experiences needless suffering in an effort to portray her character 'accurately'. This Éponine may well end up as a Misery Sue, but perhaps the intention in creating her was not so much to emphasise her general awesomeness, as to define a basis for her character and her actions, if that makes sense.

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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby merlin_emrys » Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:34 am

I think you hit the nail on the head with the distinction. It's the fact that these interpretations -- Misery Sues -- are intended to be appealing purely because of the angst that is dumped upon them and the virtue that they are meant to retain throughout every trial and tribulation, that makes them so unappealing. The point about catharsis vs Awesome Points is definitely true as well -- if, as you said, the point of Éponine angst was to make the reader sympathise and want to comfort her, it would be different from the point of emphasising "Isn't Éponine a wonderful virtuous perfect angel?" Also, I think Misery Sues can be the result of a poorly balanced plot -- there's nothing interesting about a story in which nothing good ever happens to the main character and they are only ever called upon to remain perfect and sweet in the face of every possible misfortune.

I'm also inclined to agree with you on the use of the Mary-Sue label -- it's so easy to write off characters (and this often happens to female ones) because they have some of the on-paper traits of a Sue. My view on it is that the difference is Mary-Sues are the result of poor writing, and a character that happens to possess some of those characteristics, but is nonetheless a fully-formed, human character, should not be written off so quickly. And yes, I think there is a double-standard -- possibly because in the historical fiction area, it's more of a challenge to write a female character because so much focus is on the males. Therefore, there have been many not-so-brilliant female characters written into fics for the sake of having a Strong Female. (I haven't actually noticed that much in this fandom, but elsewhere, I've seen that come up on occasion.) Which means female characters tend to be more heavily scrutinised by readers. And probably more judged. (All the same, it's really annoying.)

It's difficult to draw the line between woobie and Misery Sue, but as you said, it's really the intention behind the character. If they're just suffering hideous amounts of angst for the sake of showing off how awesome they are for getting through it and remaining perfect, they're pretty annoying. But if they are a means for readers to feel sympathy and the desire to comfort, then they are more of a woobie.

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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby Aurelia Combeferre » Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:35 am

I think the prevalence of Misery Sue Éponine is simply because she is easy to write, particularly as an avatar for the author's misery (at least this was back in the days of less-well-thought-out fic, when a lot of writers were still young girls with romantic problems who could relate to Éponine). The one thing I hate about Misery Sue Éponine is its usual tendency to overlook Éponine's survival mechanisms in canon. Although she isn't quite right in the head, she's at least a little streetsmart and has some cleverness that allows her to find addresses and get out of some situations. Usually Misery Sue Éponine is a more passive victim of the violence that comes to her: this is the Sue that watches Marius jealously while he is with Cosette, all the while thinking about how she *couldn't* escape her father, Patron-Minette and Montparnasse. This portrayal seems to forget that this is the same girl who:

-apparently has a thing for daydreaming about *other* things besides her misery
-is shameless enough to stand up to a whole bunch of armed men (logically Patron-Minette could have beaten the life out of her, but somehow she managed to cow them into slinking away from the Rue Plumet)
-who knew *how* to pull off an awkward crossdressing outfit that fooled pretty much everyone at the barricade.
-takes pride in the fact that she can read and write, even if perhaps only marginally.
-has a touch of vanity about her (the shoes incident with the soles that go ghee, ghee)
-waters Pere Mabeuf's flowers
-is NOT above doing morally questionable things such as delivering her father's deceitful letters, assisting in robberies and ambuscades, and YES, lying to Marius by initially concealing Cosette's letter. The musical glosses over the fact that this is her reason for returning to the barricade; not to be with Marius, but simply to kill herself and him in the process.

Yes, Éponine was definitely affected by the violence and difficulty around her---and in a way that makes her anything but a virtuous angel. But somehow she's a survivor. Albeit a scarred and morally questionable one. And that's the Éponine I've rarely seen in fanon.
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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby Lara » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:20 am

(I got home from school and was totally ready to post an intellectual response to this... but then I got distracted by TV Tropes for more than a few hours. That site is cruel.)

I think another part of why Éponine could be considered a woobie is because of how much Hugo goes on about how she could have been pretty and less screwed if she'd been in a different situation. And then we've seen her as a child in another life where she could've grown up out of poverty. Because of this, we feel like there might be some hope for her if she just is rescued from her family life and given a chance.

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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby collectingbees » Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:24 am

I don't know if there is anything else that I can tack on to some of the other comments, but I completely agree with them, especially about the Rue Plumet scene.

For me, Éponine reminds me so much of Coyote and Brer Rabbit, in that you never really know what she's going to do next, that she walks that fine line between hero and villain. Instead of using her brute strength, which she has none of, she uses her wits-despite how she appears, everything is very clearly planned out and very deliberate. She bends morality as she sees fit,just like Coyote and Brer Rabbit. They might not always be on the side of the angels, but you're still rooting for them, and I think the same goes for Éponine.

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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby Aurelia Combeferre » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:38 am

One word that doesn't describe Éponine is stupid. You have to admit, even in her most wacked out plan (getting Marius killed at a barricade), there is plenty of logic and intuition involved. I really wish we saw more of that in fanfiction.
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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby collectingbees » Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:39 pm

Interestingly enough, some of the original lyrics from Éponine's Errand, Marius tells Éponine to not tell her father about helping him for fear he'd "strike another blow" (this can be interpreted in many ways) and during the scene where the Thenardiers crash Marius and Cosette's wedding, Marius tells them that all he can think of when he sees them is Éponine and how she is dead and hopefully in a better place than with her slimey parents (to which they respond with "poor us, give us monies").

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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby Aurelia Combeferre » Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:19 pm

Perhaps that's meant to further underscore the contrast between Éponine and her parents. Éponine is capable of being good, despite being a sixteen year old force of chaos. The Thenardiers on the other hand don't take any sides, but they just serve to show the evil side of society.
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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby silverwhistle » Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:30 pm

lara wrote:I think another part of why Éponine could be considered a woobie is because of how much Hugo goes on about how she could have been pretty and less screwed if she'd been in a different situation. And then we've seen her as a child in another life where she could've grown up out of poverty. Because of this, we feel like there might be some hope for her if she just is rescued from her family life and given a chance.

Yes! I'm highly partial to h/c: from an early age, I used to write what I didn't know then was called 'fanfic', because characters I loved tended to get killed off in canon, and I wanted to put things right! (But I don't like inflicting suffering in fic, just repairing what happened in canon.) With Éponine, as you say, we know she hasn't always been like this, and Hugo reminds us that things could have been different.

Another point has occurred to me, having been skimming through a download of Quatrevingt-treize: Hugo let Michelle survive what seem to be far more extensive chest and shoulder wounds – so why not save Éponine? I was talking about this with a friend who's a surgeon, and she couldn't believe, from what Hugo says about Michelle's wounds, that her lung wasn't hit (either by ball or by bone fragments),or her subclavian artery. Lung wounds were very dangerous but not necessarily fatal in the time-period. Éponine is only hit by one ball (unlike Michelle). So if fans want to save her, they can do so with a clear conscience, because Hugo's pulled off more extraordinary recoveries with other characters!
collectingbees wrote:For me, Éponine reminds me so much of Coyote and Brer Rabbit, in that you never really know what she's going to do next, that she walks that fine line between hero and villain. Instead of using her brute strength, which she has none of, she uses her wits-despite how she appears, everything is very clearly planned out and very deliberate. She bends morality as she sees fit,just like Coyote and Brer Rabbit. They might not always be on the side of the angels, but you're still rooting for them, and I think the same goes for Éponine.

Yes, and I think that gives her a great deal of potential in fic, which isn't always explored. The problem with the 'Misery Sue' trope is that it is, essentially sentimental. It harks back to the mind-set of the worst 19C popular novelists. Éponine is a resourceful girl: she's had to be. She's tough.
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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby silverwhistle » Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:32 pm

Aurelia Combeferre wrote:Perhaps that's meant to further underscore the contrast between Éponine and her parents. Éponine is capable of being good, despite being a sixteen year old force of chaos. The Thenardiers on the other hand don't take any sides, but they just serve to show the evil side of society.

Yes! She and Gavroche (we don't get to know the other children so well, even Azélma) have turned out remarkably well, despite their parents!
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Il reprit: - L'amour d'un damné.

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Re: Let's talk about Éponine

Postby Ulkis » Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:27 pm

Yes! She and Gavroche (we don't get to know the other children so well, even Azélma) have turned out remarkably well, despite their parents


Probably helped Gavroche that he was kicked out early!


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