Amis and the 1830 Revolution

Any discussion related to Victor's Hugo's Les Misérables, in any language.
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Aurelia Combeferre
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Re: Amis and the 1830 Revolution

Postby Aurelia Combeferre » Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:55 am

Aw okay. Looking forward to seeing it someday. I'm sure it's superb. :)
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Re: Amis and the 1830 Revolution

Postby between4walls » Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:54 am

Acaila wrote:
deHavilland wrote:And since they're all mentioned at some point in 1832, I think it would be pretty implausible for any of them to have died prior to then anyway. ;) Wounds are wounds, though, it happens.


Obviously :P I was wondering if there were perhaps missing Amis, if it was an unlikely coincidence (or not coincidence) that they all made it through, if someone was injured, etc. Plot bunnies, ya know!

Thanks for the figure b4w, do we have a total number of insurgents?


I don't really know (I don't know many details about the July Revolution), but here's some figures that might help:

French wiki gives 10,000 insurgents and 8,000 soldiers, though based on the article I think the 10,000 is for the second day (the 28) and on the third day more barricades went up and more regiments went over to the revolutionaries. Based on that plus the death toll number in that article being on the low end, I think 10,000 is a low-end estimate. Check with someone else though as unlike with death tolls, I can't find a good source.

More than 5,000 people were decorated by Louis-Philippe for their involvement in the July Revolution through the Cross of July and the Medal of July (the Cross was more exclusive- to "perpetuate the memory" of the three days, 1789 people got it, 300 of whom were military- and controversially recipients had to take a loyalty oath to the regime to get it; the Medal, which was for "acts of courage" during the three days that didn't necessarily show the "devotion to liberty" necessary for the Cross, was more widely distributed with 3763 people decorated and no oath required).

So that's several thousand people who not only participated in some capacity in the revolution, but were though to have distinguished themselves and were known by name to the authorities.

There was also some fighting in Nantes with 16 deaths including both sides.
Last edited by between4walls on Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Amis and the 1830 Revolution

Postby WhoIam » Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:58 am

1789 people got it? Seems auspicious to me.
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Re: Amis and the 1830 Revolution

Postby Aurelia Combeferre » Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:03 am

What a number. Was that intentional on the government's part? :)
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Re: Amis and the 1830 Revolution

Postby WhoIam » Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:07 am

I'd like to think it wasn't just a coincidence.
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Re: Amis and the 1830 Revolution

Postby between4walls » Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:13 am

I'd like to think it wasn't just a coincidence.


I go the decorations stuff from a single source and don't know how good it is, but if that was the real number, I'm sure it was deliberate- the July Monarchy is when the tricolor came back as the official flag as well, the church of St Genevieve became the Pantheon once again, the banishment of the regicides was repealed, etc- all symbolizing a decisive break with the uber-reactionary Charles X and enlisting revolutionary symbolism to support the new monarch.
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Re: Amis and the 1830 Revolution

Postby between4walls » Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:48 am

Eg notice how the decoration with the 1789 total is also the one that requires an oath to the king. And 1789 is the attempted constitutional monarchy part of the revolution.

Louis-Philippe's personal experience of the earlier Revolution is a thing in itself- being kinda-sorta-maybe responsible for the death of your own father isn't something you forget. (L-P was on the staff of Gen. Dumouriez, who conceived a really, really dumb plan to overthrow the Convention and when it failed, had to flee, the nineteen-year-old L-P was at least aware of the plan and fled with him, his revolution-supporting father Philippe Egalite was then arrested. Did I mention that Gen. Dumouriez's plan sucked? He asked his troops to overthrow the government right after losing two battles; for obvious reasons they didn't go along with it.)
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Re: Amis and the 1830 Revolution

Postby between4walls » Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:20 am

Another tidbit re: Marius and 1830- he's mentioned as sometimes meeting General Pajol to talk about his father, whom he knew. General Pajol played a major role in the July Revolution and its aftermath (ie there was an expedition to make sure Charles X didn't come back). He also, as MmeBahorel pointed out in the Readthrough, suppressed the 1832 insurrection.

Personal theories-
I think Marius would have been out in 1830 in the later stages to see what was happening/show support for the overthrow (the stuff Charles X was doing would rouse even a generally apathetic person, especially if they opposed royalty to begin with), but not fighting directly as it's clear from the way he freaks out in 1832 that he's never been involved in a civil conflict.

Given Charles X's alienation of the bourgeoisie by, to name just a few offending measures, taking away voting rights from the upper-middle class and acting like he could set aside the results of elections he didn't like, I bet many of the Amis are supported by their parents in a way they wouldn't be in 1832.
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Re: Amis and the 1830 Revolution

Postby Tapferhills » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:32 pm

between4walls wrote:
I don't really know (I don't know many details about the July Revolution), but here's some figures that might help:

French wiki gives 10,000 insurgents and 8,000 soldiers, though based on the article I think the 10,000 is for the second day (the 28) and on the third day more barricades went up and more regiments went over to the revolutionaries. Based on that plus the death toll number in that article being on the low end, I think 10,000 is a low-end estimate. Check with someone else though as unlike with death tolls, I can't find a good source.

More than 5,000 people were decorated by Louis-Philippe for their involvement in the July Revolution through the Cross of July and the Medal of July (the Cross was more exclusive- to "perpetuate the memory" of the three days, 1789 people got it, 300 of whom were military- and controversially recipients had to take a loyalty oath to the regime to get it; the Medal, which was for "acts of courage" during the three days that didn't necessarily show the "devotion to liberty" necessary for the Cross, was more widely distributed with 3763 people decorated and no oath required).

So that's several thousand people who not only participated in some capacity in the revolution, but were though to have distinguished themselves and were known by name to the authorities.

There was also some fighting in Nantes with 16 deaths including both sides.


Great info! 10,000 rose for 1830 – makes it that much more heartbreaking for our boys. They’d seen how the people could rise.

between4walls wrote:Personal theories-
I think Marius would have been out in 1830 in the later stages to see what was happening/show support for the overthrow (the stuff Charles X was doing would rouse even a generally apathetic person, especially if they opposed royalty to begin with), but not fighting directly as it's clear from the way he freaks out in 1832 that he's never been involved in a civil conflict.

Given Charles X's alienation of the bourgeoisie by, to name just a few offending measures, taking away voting rights from the upper-middle class and acting like he could set aside the results of elections he didn't like, I bet many of the Amis are supported by their parents in a way they wouldn't be in 1832.


And ooh, interesting theory about the parental support, I hadn’t thought about that.

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Re: Amis and the 1830 Revolution

Postby between4walls » Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:46 pm

Tapferhills wrote:
between4walls wrote:Personal theories-
I think Marius would have been out in 1830 in the later stages to see what was happening/show support for the overthrow (the stuff Charles X was doing would rouse even a generally apathetic person, especially if they opposed royalty to begin with), but not fighting directly as it's clear from the way he freaks out in 1832 that he's never been involved in a civil conflict.

Given Charles X's alienation of the bourgeoisie by, to name just a few offending measures, taking away voting rights from the upper-middle class and acting like he could set aside the results of elections he didn't like, I bet many of the Amis are supported by their parents in a way they wouldn't be in 1832.


And ooh, interesting theory about the parental support, I hadn’t thought about that.


Given the speed of communications and the fact that all their families live in the South, it might be retroactive- I doubt they could communicate much during such a short time-, but tension had been building for months before the revolution and Charles's unpopularity with electors was clear. You could get some interesting friction if say, father and son both approve of the overthrow of Charles (and the father's thrilled the new king is giving his son a medal) but disagree strongly on the outcome with Louis-Philippe (since it's specified in the Amis' introduction that some of their fathers were constitutional monarchists, ie the type of people who would become Orleanists, but none were republicans).
Here day embraces night, and says: I will die with you and you will be reborn with me. From the heavy embrace of all desolations springs faith.

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Re: Amis and the 1830 Revolution

Postby between4walls » Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:10 pm

Of course, some of the parents are not even constitutional monarchists, and therefore probably not happy with this business!

Relatedly, June 1832 was a time of not just republican but also legitimist plotting- for example there was a failed legitimist insurrection led by the Duchesse de Berry in the Vendee.
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Re: Amis and the 1830 Revolution

Postby deHavilland » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:44 am

Here's an opinion-based question:

Where was Grantaire in 1830?

Did he follow Enjolras on whatever adventures he was having at the time? Did he sleep through this one, too? Thoughts?
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Re: Amis and the 1830 Revolution

Postby Aurelia Combeferre » Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:20 am

Probably following Enjolras around. Then when he realized how futile this would be on his end, cue in another phase of his seeking refuge in absinthe. He probably had a sardonic toast or two when Louis-Philippe took over.
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Re: Amis and the 1830 Revolution

Postby MmeBahorel » Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:57 pm

If he could sleep for three days off one binge, I think he deserves a medal :)

I slightly disagree with Aurelia only in that I think there's a reason, somewhere in the past, of R not being useless - I think Enjolras had something in the back of his mind as to why he's giving R that one last chance of going to Richefeu's. I think the whole thing likely played out exactly as she theorises but I also think this is perhaps the best opportunity for R to have managed to actually do something. Nothing big, but not ruining anything nor being a useless lump. I really think there's a good reason somewhere in their history for Enjolras to have said yes, and 1830 offers the most scope for active results.

That said, whatever happened would have entirely different meanings to Enjolras and R. Enjolras in the heat of actual things happening probably wasn't even considering thanking his unwanted but suddenly barely useful protege for whatever R did, thus cue in another phase of seeking refuge in absinthe with sardonic toasts when Lafayette hands over to Louis-Philippe.
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Re: Amis and the 1830 Revolution

Postby deHavilland » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:04 am

MmeBahorel wrote:If he could sleep for three days off one binge, I think he deserves a medal :)


Slept for one off the binge, spent the rest nursing the resulting hangover!

I agree with you on the idea of R not having been completely useless from the get-go, but I don't know if I'd apply the usefulness to his involvement during the July Revolution. If we take their introduction at 1828 as 1828, then the sort of relationship between the two of them that is applied throughout would have already been established by 1830. So useful earlier than '28, maybe. Not necessarily during '30. However, this does leave a bit of a conundrum, because if Grantaire was a complete waste of space in July, would they have really been inclined to keep him around for another two years or was it just that well, he's here and it's more effort to tell him to go away than to just let him be here since he's obviously not a spy, so whatever?

In so many ways I feel like 1830 almost didn't even happen in the universe that Les Mis takes place in, though its residual marks obviously remain in the political landscape.
"Quand vous aurez besoin de Bahorel, capitaine, Bahorel est là! Je sais faire trébucher tous les chevaux du garde-corps avec une ficelle... Rien qu'une petite ficelle. Enfin, pensez à Bahorel du Café Musain!"


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