Gavroche vs Dodger?

Any discussion related to Victor's Hugo's Les Misérables, in any language.
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warbetweenfourwalls
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Gavroche vs Dodger?

Postby warbetweenfourwalls » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:48 pm

The musical can be bad about this, and it was certainly evident in the movie, but Gavroche is often portrayed as being similar to the Artful Dodger from Oliver. In my mind at least, the two are extremely different: Dodger is a pawn for Fagin while Gavroche simply does what he wants when he wants with no one to tell him he can't

I don't know where I'm going with this, but...what do you guys think?
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Re: Gavroche vs Dodger?

Postby Enjolvert » Thu Aug 01, 2013 1:07 am

Bear in mind that the musical was largely inspired by one of the shows creators, (or was it both?) seeing the Artful Dodger and being inspired to think of Gavroche. From that, there were always going to be some similarities and the fact that he has a cockney accent probably doesn't help the generalisation.

I don't know Oliver Twist particularly well though, but while both characters have some similarities there's clearly a lot of differences as you say.
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Re: Gavroche vs Dodger?

Postby MmeBahorel » Thu Aug 01, 2013 2:15 am

I'd like to hear more about how you think it particularly evident in the film. (the kid looks more like the kid who played Oliver in that film - cute and blond - so I think I'm starting at a disadvantage here)
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Re: Gavroche vs Dodger?

Postby warbetweenfourwalls » Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:46 am

It's just that he's got this little band of kids following him around, and he's got the little cockney accent. It's nothing too major, I just don't think that they're respected as two totally different characters all the time.
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Re: Gavroche vs Dodger?

Postby MmeBahorel » Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:27 am

Ah, the Cockney is meaningless to me as a character marker. It's the equivalent of saying everyone with an Irish accent is playing a similar character. "Irish" has varying meanings based on character and role in film, so it's essentially a meaningless link - other character traits are more meaningful in making those links. That's why I wasn't seeing it.

Honestly, Dodger is the most famous felonious homeless 19th c. youth in English lit, so some of that is likely to carry over with English-speaking fans. Without doing tons of research into the sociology of the Parisian gamin, it's useful for general fic purposes to just pull from other knowledge that isn't necessarily tremendously far off. A certain amount of Dickens' London is going to turn up in fandom's Hugo's Paris because they have that background as opposed to a background in Eugène Sue. I'm not sure there's a character conflation as often as a sociological conflation between the urban lowest class of both countries (the period isn't much off - just later in the 1830s).

But then, I haven't been reading fic for a few years, so it's entirely possible there is a current movement that places Gav more firmly within Patron Minette and thus more substantially pulls more of Dodger's personal characteristics.
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Re: Gavroche vs Dodger?

Postby Gervais » Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:26 am

. A certain amount of Dickens' London is going to turn up in fandom's Hugo's Paris because they have that background as opposed to a background in Eugène Sue. I'm not sure there's a character conflation as often as a sociological conflation between the urban lowest class of both countries (the period isn't much off - just later in the 1830s).

I haven't read a lot of fic that heavily involved Gavroche (C/M Fluff for the win) but from what I do see, that's what usually happens. There are fics that have him and Éponine talking in Cockney accents, but it's not neccesarily because the writer sees him as Dodger as much as they see him as like Dodger.

(They definitely have their similarities, but they aren't really overwhelming and are sort of superficial--the biggest one I can think of is that Gavroche takes care of his brothers for a few days and Dodger takes in Oliver, but Gavroche does it because they need taking care of while Dodger mostly does it to get another person in Fagin's gang if I remember right.)
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Re: Gavroche vs Dodger?

Postby deHavilland » Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:37 am

Gervais wrote:There are fics that have him and Éponine talking in Cockney accents, but it's not neccesarily because the writer sees him as Dodger as much as they see him as like Dodger.


I think there's something valid in this where you don't even need to bring the Artful Dodger into the equation. Probably for most people who grew up in English-speaking society, the image of a street urchin is going to look a lot like the Artful Dodger whether you know who that is or not. There are so many adaptations of Dickens that portray him the same way and then so many other things that borrow the characterization from Dickens that in many ways Dodger has become more of an archetype and less of an individual character when it comes to portrayals.

Do adaptations whether in fic, films or onstage that show Gavroche as a Dodger-like character show him as a character actually comparable to the Artful Dodger or just another character based on the developed archetype of a streetwise homeless kid from the 19th century that was borne initially from the Artful Dodger? (Into which category hundreds of similar characters fall.)
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Re: Gavroche vs Dodger?

Postby Gervais » Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:59 am

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... tfulDodger The fact that there's a TV Trope named after him kind of supports what Havvy's said. Gavroche is more of an example of the archetype, not necessarily the exact character.
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