Marius Pontmercy and the Monomyth

Any discussion related to Victor's Hugo's Les Misérables, in any language.
User avatar
YoungStudentMarius
Posts: 8158
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:43 am
Location: In the library

Re: Marius Pontmercy and the Monomyth

Postby YoungStudentMarius » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:43 pm

Oh, I'm not well-read, I think, just bits here and there. :shock: But thank you. I didn't mean for it to get long, but it did on accident. :oops:

Back to the Jungian archetypes, what do you think Enjolras would be? I'm not quite sure; I really don't think he would be The Rebel, but then the only other thing seems to be The Creator.
The Creator
Motto: If you can imagine it, it can be done
Core desire: to create things of enduring value
Goal: to realize a vision
Greatest fear: mediocre vision or execution
Strategy: develop artistic control and skill
Task: to create culture, express own vision
Weakness: perfectionism, bad solutions
Talent: creativity and imagination
The Creator is also known as: The artist, inventor, innovator, musician, writer or dreamer.

It's not exactly right, and there's many problems with it, especially because it's not how we typically view Enjolras at all, actually, it's rather fundamentally different, but does it work at all? It just seems like in comparison with ones like The Hero and The Rebel, which might sound like him in name, they latter ones just don't work. But then again, it puts The Creator at the other end of the spectrum, on the personal side as opposed to the social side, and the things he wants are not as much on the material side of artistic things, so I don't quite know. http://www.soulcraft.co/essays/the_12_common_archetypes.html
Our chimeras are the things which most resemble us. Each of us dreams of the unknown and the impossible in accordance with his nature.

User avatar
Gervais
Posts: 5975
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:10 pm
Location: Smelling your soul within your handkerchief

Re: Marius Pontmercy and the Monomyth

Postby Gervais » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:49 pm

We're all learning together. :wink:

That does work for him, actually, especially with the motto.

Could Combeferre work as a combination of Caregiver and Sage, then?

Motto: Love your neighbour as yourself
Core desire: to protect and care for others
Goal: to help others
Greatest fear: selfishness and ingratitude
Strategy: doing things for others
Weakness: martyrdom and being exploited
Talent: compassion, generosity
The Caregiver is also known as: The saint, altruist, parent, helper, supporter.

The Sage
Motto: The truth will set you free
Core desire: to find the truth.
Goal: to use intelligence and analysis to understand the world.
Biggest fear: being duped, misled—or ignorance.
Strategy: seeking out information and knowledge; self-reflection and understanding thought processes.
Weakness: can study details forever and never act.
Talent: wisdom, intelligence.
The Sage is also known as: The expert, scholar, detective, advisor, thinker, philosopher, academic, researcher, thinker, planner, professional, mentor, teacher, contemplative.
Image

"The peas, Woyzeck. The PEAS."

User avatar
YoungStudentMarius
Posts: 8158
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:43 am
Location: In the library

Re: Marius Pontmercy and the Monomyth

Postby YoungStudentMarius » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:02 pm

Oh, definitely. I like that a lot. And Fantine is certainly a caregiver. What would Courfeyrac be? The Jester and the Caregiver maybe?
And I read the description of The Orphan/Regular Guy or Gal, and immediately thought Feuilly, but I feel like there's someone else that fits, too, and well, but I'm blanking on who it could be.

Gervais wrote:We're all learning together. :wink:

And yes, very, very true. I'm glad of it. :mrgreen:
Our chimeras are the things which most resemble us. Each of us dreams of the unknown and the impossible in accordance with his nature.

User avatar
freedomlover
Posts: 7171
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:47 am
Location: The Barricade of Freedom!!! or the Saint-Merri Barricade

Re: Marius Pontmercy and the Monomyth

Postby freedomlover » Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:10 am

This is interesting ;) Reminds me of my "gifts" thread almost.. Where Enjolras was the "prophet" and Fantine the "giver"

That sounds accurate for Combeferre....
ImageTime Machine Theory:According to some people, Hugo had a time machine and based Enjolras on this user but made a male version of this user.

User avatar
Gervais
Posts: 5975
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:10 pm
Location: Smelling your soul within your handkerchief

Re: Marius Pontmercy and the Monomyth

Postby Gervais » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:35 pm

Image

"The peas, Woyzeck. The PEAS."

User avatar
YoungStudentMarius
Posts: 8158
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:43 am
Location: In the library

Re: Marius Pontmercy and the Monomyth

Postby YoungStudentMarius » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:43 am

Oh, Gervais, I love it, so much! :mrgreen: It's fantastic and perfect for Jehan. Truly.
Our chimeras are the things which most resemble us. Each of us dreams of the unknown and the impossible in accordance with his nature.

User avatar
Gervais
Posts: 5975
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:10 pm
Location: Smelling your soul within your handkerchief

Re: Marius Pontmercy and the Monomyth

Postby Gervais » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:20 am

Thank you. :mrgreen: Still not sure how that one line ended up across his face, though. :?
Image

"The peas, Woyzeck. The PEAS."

User avatar
YoungStudentMarius
Posts: 8158
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:43 am
Location: In the library

Re: Marius Pontmercy and the Monomyth

Postby YoungStudentMarius » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:30 am

I actually thought it was kind of cool. I can't describe it, but it lent an interesting feel to the piece. :D I mean, it looked more intentional than not, I suppose. And usually those things bother me.
Our chimeras are the things which most resemble us. Each of us dreams of the unknown and the impossible in accordance with his nature.

User avatar
Gervais
Posts: 5975
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:10 pm
Location: Smelling your soul within your handkerchief

Re: Marius Pontmercy and the Monomyth

Postby Gervais » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:37 am

That's good, then. *sigh of relief* At the moment I'm debating on how to do the others, or how many others to do even.
Image

"The peas, Woyzeck. The PEAS."

User avatar
YoungStudentMarius
Posts: 8158
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:43 am
Location: In the library

Re: Marius Pontmercy and the Monomyth

Postby YoungStudentMarius » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:38 am

Do some more, do some more! :mrgreen: They look like great fun.
Our chimeras are the things which most resemble us. Each of us dreams of the unknown and the impossible in accordance with his nature.

User avatar
Gervais
Posts: 5975
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:10 pm
Location: Smelling your soul within your handkerchief

Re: Marius Pontmercy and the Monomyth

Postby Gervais » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:40 pm

Cosette/Muse: http://singinggervais.tumblr.com/image/47026937452 I think I'm going to make a thread for these in Web Art. And glad you want more of them. :mrgreen:
Image

"The peas, Woyzeck. The PEAS."

User avatar
YoungStudentMarius
Posts: 8158
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:43 am
Location: In the library

Re: Marius Pontmercy and the Monomyth

Postby YoungStudentMarius » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:18 pm

They're awesome, and I love your Javert one, too. :mrgreen:

I found an interesting document thing, but it made me download it. :? I'll see if I can find a link.

But one of the Plot archetypes, here, is rather interesting in an LM context:
The Fall – Many characters who begin this plot line in a high safe place, find themselves suffering from a personal weakness that causes them to fall from grace. A fall is usually accompanied by either a redemption or tragedy.


And this, this is really interesting in a musical context (specifically the ones I bolded):
a. Black (darkness) – chaos, mystery, the unknown, before existence, death, the unconscious, evil
b. Red – blood, sacrifice; violent passion, disorder, sunrise, birth, fire, emotion, wounds, death, sentiment, mother, Mars, the note C, anger, excitement, heat, physical stimulation


Aha, here's a similar article to the one that downloaded itself. I've only just barely glanced at it, but it looks interesting.
Our chimeras are the things which most resemble us. Each of us dreams of the unknown and the impossible in accordance with his nature.

User avatar
Gervais
Posts: 5975
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:10 pm
Location: Smelling your soul within your handkerchief

Re: Marius Pontmercy and the Monomyth

Postby Gervais » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:30 pm

Active thread dance, go! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Ooh, stuff with Plot. Everything else so far's just been characters, so of you do end up with a link, of course I'll read it. And the other one is pulled up. :mrgreen:
YoungStudentMarius wrote:But one of the Plot archetypes, here, is rather interesting in an LM context:
The Fall – Many characters who begin this plot line in a high safe place, find themselves suffering from a personal weakness that causes them to fall from grace. A fall is usually accompanied by either a redemption or tragedy.


And if you fall as Lucifer fell, you fall in flaaaames! :twisted: Sorry.
I guess the "high safe place" is relative; Fantine certainly falls, but she wasn't exactly in the highest place to begin with. Though everything else with archetypes is relative, so I guess she counts, then.
...Almost everyone in this book falls. Geeze.

The red and black meanings are really cool, too. :D

Oh look, it's Pontmercy again:
Father-Son Conflict – Tension often results from separation during childhood or from an external source when the individuals meet as men and where the mentor often has a higher place in the affections of the hero than the natural parent. Sometimes the conflict is resolved in atonement.

Except, y'know, more dying. Though, looking at it a bit more, it could go with him and Gillenormand more than his actual father, with maybe Mabeuf as the mentor? For Gillenormand as the father, "External source" would be the death of Georges, "meet as men" maybe right before he leaves, and the "atonement" being his return home.

And since I've brought him up, have his coat color:
Green–hope,growth,envy,Earth,fertility,sensation,vegetation,death,water,nature,sympathy,
adaptability,
growth,
Jupiter and Venus, the note G, envy

Why did it cut the word? :|
I'll go ahead and admit that I want to see/listen to some of his lines now and figure out where he sings Gs. :lol:

Edit: It's an actual book, but here, this looks interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Writer ... or_Writers (At least, I don't think you linked to it earlier.)
Image

"The peas, Woyzeck. The PEAS."

User avatar
YoungStudentMarius
Posts: 8158
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:43 am
Location: In the library

Re: Marius Pontmercy and the Monomyth

Postby YoungStudentMarius » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:56 pm

Gervais wrote:I guess the "high safe place" is relative; Fantine certainly falls, but she wasn't exactly in the highest place to begin with. Though everything else with archetypes is relative, so I guess she counts, then.
...Almost everyone in this book falls. Geeze.

I know, and the funny thing is, if they almost all fall, then that option for tragedy or redemption is really open, and interesting. Also, they're the miserable ones, 'high safe place,' is certainly relative. I think one of the ones who symbolizes it the best, though, is Éponine. Starts out pampered, or at least relatively so, and then she does fall, and ends it with a tragedy that brings about her redemption, as she sees it. Also, Jean Valjean, of course, but even Javert, though his safe place is there for most of the book, and it's only at the end that he falls. The irony. :mrgreen:


Gervais wrote:Oh look, it's Pontmercy again:
Father-Son Conflict – Tension often results from separation during childhood or from an external source when the individuals meet as men and where the mentor often has a higher place in the affections of the hero than the natural parent. Sometimes the conflict is resolved in atonement.

Except, y'know, more dying. Though, looking at it a bit more, it could go with him and Gillenormand more than his actual father, with maybe Mabeuf as the mentor? For Gillenormand as the father, "External source" would be the death of Georges, "meet as men" maybe right before he leaves, and the "atonement" being his return home.

And that, my friend, is straight out of the monomyth. :wink: :mrgreen:

Gervais wrote:And since I've brought him up, have his coat color:
Green–hope,growth,envy,Earth,fertility,sensation,vegetation,death,water,nature,sympathy,adaptability,
growth,
Jupiter and Venus, the note G, envy

I'll go ahead and admit that I want to see/listen to some of his lines now and figure out where he sings Gs. :lol:

Ah, brilliant; I hadn't even thought of that! Especially adaptability and growth, though jealousy is a good one, too, as well as hope.
And yes, likewise, I want to go through Red and Black and see if there's any Cs. Or rewrite all the LM songs by color.

Huh, here's an interesting setting archetype:
The Inn – A remote roadside setting where traveler and locals interact, the inn is rarely a place of good news. Fear of the unknown often accompanies the tragedies of inn inhabitants. In some stories, a beautiful woman is an unexpected surprise at the inn.

Or at least an ugly child who grows into a beautiful woman.
Unless they meant The Thenardieress. :wink:

Seasons tend to be traditional symbols.

Ooh, this is something we could have fun with. Since Hugo typically does give us the season of things, doesn't he?
Well, there's the June rebellion, and Waterloo, that quote about "summer does not abdicate." That is definitely a message, if not exactly a symbol, that summer isn't always beautiful. And Fantine gave up her child in spring, I think. So either Hugo really didn't care, or he was doing the opposite of what they typically represent, since spring is usually life, and giving up Cosette was the beginning of the path to her death.
I think the Gorbeau robbery stuff happened in February or so, so winter, right? That could make sense.
Trying to remember when Marius and Cosette met, both first in the Luxembourg with their eyes, and later in the Rue Plumet garden. It feels like spring, but I don't know.
No, wait, it was January, wasn't it? For the Luxembourg. And then...two months would make it...April, right? I don't know. :oops: Ignore my bad memory; this is perhaps not it at all.
Though, while we're on the subject, gardens. :mrgreen: Gardens = life, hope, beauty, innocence.
EDIT: Or, according to Sources, gardens represent "paradise, innocence, unspoiled feminine beauty, and fertility." :lol:
EDIT AGAIN: And, I just found this:
1. The mythos of spring: comedy
2. The mythos of summer: romance
3. The mythos of fall: tragedy
4. The mythos of winter: irony

So maybe I'm entirely on the wrong track, here. :?
http://comminfo.rutgers.edu/~mjoseph/c-guerin.html (source)
Our chimeras are the things which most resemble us. Each of us dreams of the unknown and the impossible in accordance with his nature.

User avatar
Gervais
Posts: 5975
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:10 pm
Location: Smelling your soul within your handkerchief

Re: Marius Pontmercy and the Monomyth

Postby Gervais » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:14 am

The dates are mostly allusions to historical events, though, so it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't go with the archetype for that season.

I'll claim the Bishop's garden as a symbol of Paradise and Rue Plumet's as a symbol no kidding I just typed "citizen" *facepalm* of innocence and/or beauty, leaning towards the innocence. It's a bit early in their relationship for it to be a sign of fertility. :wink: Mabeuf's is...innocence and paradise, maybe? Because Éponine is there for Marius and nothing else, and isn't exactly at home there.

I like the Inn. :lol:

*steals new link*
Image

"The peas, Woyzeck. The PEAS."


Return to “The Brick”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron