All those allusions

Any discussion related to Victor's Hugo's Les Misérables, in any language.
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duva
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Postby duva » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:15 pm

MmeJavert wrote:Yeah, Meaux/Mots.

There was a Bossuet at the time, and he was a French poet. They called him 'L'aigle de Mots' -- the Eagle of Words. Pun. :D


Wasn't that the same one, the Bishop of Meaux? Who was famous for his brilliant funeral orations, hence the pun (and the chapter in the book)?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bossuet

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JeanneProuvaire
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Postby JeanneProuvaire » Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:06 pm

Thanks for posting that... I'm new to this whole research thing.
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Postby Vana Tuivana » Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:15 am

I think I may have found another allusion (yay!). From the introduction of Jean Prouvaire:

He called himself Jehan, from that momentary little fancy that mingled with the deep and powerful movement giving rise to the study of the Middle Ages, then so necessary.


I'm doing some research into a few different works of Middle Ages literature for one of my classes, and in one of my books there's an offhand reference to a work called "Petit Jehan de Saintré" by Antoine de la Sale. I haven't read it, but from what I learned, it's a romance about the education of a boy, Petit Jehan, who is learning from a lady to be an ideal knight. He's very young in the beginning of the story and ends up a knight who is famed throughout Europe for his chivalry and prowess, etc.

I don't know if Hugo is specifically referring to this work, but it seems probable to me. Anyway, I thought it was interesting. :D

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Marianne
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Postby Marianne » Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:37 am

Jehan, I think, is simply a medieval form of the name Jean.
[Dieu] entend ta voix, ô fille des hommes! aussi bien que celle des constellations; car rien n'est petit pour celui devant lequel rien n'est grand.
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duva
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Postby duva » Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:31 pm

Marianne wrote:Jehan, I think, is simply a medieval form of the name Jean.


And an incredibly common name... I can't find the link that I'm looking for but these two should give you some kind of idea.

http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/name ... reton.html

http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/fre ... tenay.html

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Vana Tuivana
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Postby Vana Tuivana » Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:27 pm

Aha. So I do read too deeply into my little coincidences... Oh well. Such is the life of an English major. :wink:

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Postby Bloody Noses » Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:18 am

Montparnasse had, in fact, encountered Éponine as she stood on the watch under the trees of the boulevard, and had led her off, preferring to play Némorin with the daughter rather than Schinderhannes with the father
-Saint Denis (chapter Éponine)
Némorin- In the book Estelle et Némorin, by Florian, Némorin is known to be a lover. (That's really all I could dig up)

Schinderhannes- a famous German thief (c.1778-1803) who had one of the largest crime sprees in German history. He mainly targeted Jews and left peasents alone. When things started getting too hot, he fled across the Rhiene and, under the name of Jakob Schweikart, enlisted in the Austrian Army. A former colleague found him and turned him in. On Sept. 21 1803, he was gilleotined (how do you spell that?) before 40,000 people. His legend still attracts a lot of tourism.

See! Éponine doesn't need Marius. She's got Montparnasse.

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Postby Mademoiselle Lanoire » Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:56 pm

Guillotine

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Frédéric Dumont
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Postby Frédéric Dumont » Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:47 pm

I might add a little translation to Schinderhannes, which is of course just the nickname he was given by the country people.
Hannes is a shortened form of Johannes, which is the German form of John.
Schinder is a bit more interesting. :wink: It was a job once actually, it was the man who separated the hide from the flesh on animal cadavres (sorry, probably a bad description, but I have no dictionary near) - so, the man who pulls the hide off people. In medieval times, the "Schinderknecht" was the executioner's assistant and did just the job described above.
Apart from that, "schinden" can also mean "to abuse someone", in the sense of working him overly hard, whipping him and similar.
In this context, I'd tend towards the first translation, as we speak of a robber.
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Postby brittlesmile » Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:23 am

I'm suprised that no one's mentioned this yet, but it's stated that Enjolras is Saint Just (with a bit of Robespierre), and I'm pretty sure it's alluded to that Combeferre is Desmoulins and Courfeyrac is Danton. I can't remember exactly which passages allude to that, but maybe someone else does?
"Détruire les abus, cela ne suffit pas; il faut modifier les moeurs. Le moulin n'y est plus, le vent y est encore."

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Postby Frédéric Dumont » Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:54 am

Enjolras is so totally Saint-Just in appearance (except the earrings), yes, and totally Robespierre in chracter. Yes, odd no one mentioned it... Probably because it's so obvious. :wink:

Combeferre was more Condorcet to me, or some other Girondist. And I think there's a bit of Marat in Joly (or is this only because we equipped him with some rash for Valley of the Night? :lol: ).
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duva
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Postby duva » Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:35 pm

Frédéric Dumont wrote:Enjolras is so totally Saint-Just in appearance (except the earrings), yes, and totally Robespierre in chracter.


He had but one passion--the right; but one thought--to overthrow the obstacle. On Mount Aventine, he would have been Gracchus; in the Convention, he would have been Saint-Just.


I think that suggests he's Saint-Just in character too...?

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Frédéric Dumont
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Postby Frédéric Dumont » Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:28 pm

He still resembles Robespierre to me - take his rather "abstract" points of view and his chastity on principle.
(Though I'll admit openly that I do not know very much about Saint-Just as a character.)
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MmeJavert
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Postby MmeJavert » Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:41 am

I'm pretty sure I remember a line or a phrase specifically comparing Combeferre to Condorcet.

When comparing Enjolras and Combeferre:
The first went as far as Robespierre; the second stopped at Condorcet.
and to this day, she's glided on
always home but so far away
like a word misplaced
nothing said, what a waste

~pearl jam, "dissident"

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Postby brittlesmile » Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:45 am

I think I read somewhere that the "revolution but civilization" thing was an allusion to Desmoulins. I could be mistaken, though, since the Enjolras is obviously Robespierre and Saint Just and the comparison was being made between Courfeyrac and Danton. Desmoulins seemed the most logical to me. :lol:
"Détruire les abus, cela ne suffit pas; il faut modifier les moeurs. Le moulin n'y est plus, le vent y est encore."


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